Author Archives: Brian Lawson

Preparing For A Successful Year – Four Tips

Preparing For A Successful Year
Posted on by

All around the country, folks are preparing for a successful new year of school. Buses are running their practice routes, schools are hosting open houses, and schedule change requests are pouring into guidance counselors.

A lot of action goes on at the beginning of the school year. And the same is true for us in ministry. Before we lose focus in the busyness, let’s get prepared.

You can start preparing for a successful year with these four tips.

Have a plan to communicate with parents.

How you communicate with the parents of young people in your ministry will often make or break their attendance. 

Consider how you will communicate your top-level announcements, such as when your Fall Retreat will occur. Top-level announcements can be shared via a printed calendar (for the entire Fall/Winter season), through monthly parent e-mails, in your church bulletin, or website. Top-level announcements contain information that individuals can use to make a decision about participation. For instance they can look at the retreat dates and decide if it works with their schedule.

Mid-level announcements get more specific. These announcements are audience focused. Mid-level may be the details of the Fall Retreat. Where will drop-off and pickup occur? How much spending money should their child bring? This information can go out in newsletters, but you will also want to communicate this information more directly to those participating in the activity.

Quick announcements are the final kind to consider. These are the announcements used to encourage last-minute participation or temporary changes to plans. Text messaging, social media, or phone calls are often the best mediums for this type of communication. Do you have a text message system or a way of collecting their phone numbers? Will you put young people on this text list also?

Create excitement for the mission within your volunteer team.

An old saying is, “Mission is like a balloon with a slow leak.” I have found this to be true. 

To help your team refocus around your mission, spend time together to go over the mission. But don’t just say the mission – make a game out of it. Write the mission statement on paper and cut it like a jigsaw puzzle. See how quickly volunteers can put the mission back together. Then, help them see a practical example of what it looks like for them to live out that mission in your ministry. Get them excited and involved in preparing for a successful year by actively honing in on the mission.

Engage with young people who are leaders.

Whether you call them student leaders or not, there are young people in your ministry that influence others. It may be a natural ability they have or respect given to them by their peers. Whatever the source is, build a relationship with them and help them see what you hope the ministry will look like this year.

For example, if one of these influencers buys into the idea of your ministry being a place where every person has a friend, they will help make that happen when they see a new person. They will either befriend the new person or encourage others to do the task. The quickest way to culture change in your ministry is through young people, not adults

Have a game plan for your spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical health.

I had a history of being one of the worst at caring for myself. I would get excited and ready to make a significant impact in the next season of ministry. So what would happen? I quickly forget about myself, leading to exhaustion and near burnout by the end of the season.

Over time I discovered that making a plan based on the season was helpful to me. For instance, I may say that I will intentionally schedule extra meetings for the next three months with people that refuel me. Or I may take a season of planning spare time to listen to podcasts. I always found mowing my yard was a good time for these podcasts. Whatever it may be, preparing for a successful year has to include a plan of how to take care of yourself in the next season. Be creative, have fun, and make it something enjoyable to you. Your health directly impacts those you serve.

I hope these spur on ideas on how you can have a great season of ministry this Fall. At Youth Ministry Institute, we are always rooting for you!

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

Other Post Topics

After The Program: What’s Next?

Posted on by

For many of us, VBS 2023 is over. We’ve loved seeing volunteers serve, loads of kids on campus, and many new faces. But I have to ask you, is it actually over? What’s next?

Whether you held a VBS, summer camp, or another outreach-oriented event this summer, the program’s conclusion is not the end. Now, I know you are tired. Your team is exhausted and ready to rest. So why would I tell you that your work is not finished? 

What you do after the program is as important, or even more than, the program itself.

You’ve had great encounters with new people, and you hope they walk away knowing the love of Jesus. Additionally, you probably also desire to see them again in your regular ministry gatherings. The work you do after the outreach event is what can help fulfill these hopes.

A few key ways you can do good work after VBS or other outreach events.

After the program: Consider personal encounters. 

How a person feels when interacting with you can make a big difference in whether they want to spend more time with you.

My kids participated in a VBS this week. Teenagers led their groups. This setup is common; you may even use this setup. When groups are set up this way, those children spend significant time with teenagers. They get to know them and look forward to seeing them the next day.

If this describes your setting, consider asking the group leaders (or any volunteer) who have spent time with the children to send personalized cards. You could even include a photo of the group leader with the child.

Why do this?

The goal here is to cultivate the relationship built and remind the young person that someone at your church knows and cares for them.

Curt Thompson says, “We all are born into the world looking for someone looking for us.” The same is true about any human being that participates in your programs. So make an extra effort to help them feel seen on and off campus. 

After the program, connect present experiences to the future.

You likely had a great time at your event. You may have had a song that was a big hit or a fun character on stage. Perhaps the young people went crazy over a game you played. These present experiences are excellent opportunities for the future.

So was there a particular activity, game, or character from your outreach that everyone loved? If so, communicate to those who attended your event that this beloved element will be at your next gathering. Connecting what they loved with what you will be doing next extends the present experience into the future.

A little side note, do not overuse that thing they loved. The saying, “leave them wanting more,” is true in this situation. If you play that unique game every week, it will quickly lose the uniqueness factor.

Communicate gratitude to volunteers, parents, and other staff members. 

You did not accomplish the event on your own. The best work we do involves teams of people working together. I imagine you will want their help in the future. Take this opportunity to express gratitude and communicate how their work supported your church’s mission. Above all, help them see that they were part of something bigger than themselves.

You’ve done good work this summer. Let’s continue that work by doing post-event ministry well. Did I miss anything? What would you add to this conversation? Rooting for you!

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

Other Post Topics

Am I Doing This Right?

Posted on by

There was a time when I wondered, “Am I doing ministry right?” This feeling went on for years.

Yes, I would feel good about events we were hosting, and sometimes I’d even feel good about a sermon, lesson, or small group. But, I still felt unsure whether I was doing ministry well.

Then one day, I learned something. I learned that there is a way to understand the impact we are making. There is a way to know if we are on the path to achieving our mission. Best yet, there is a way that I can help my volunteers feel successful in our ministry!

So what was it that I learned to help feel like we’re doing this right?

I learned to define the wins for the ministry I lead.

I learned how to communicate to my team, parents, students, supervisor, and other vital audiences exactly how to see the wins in our youth ministry. And once I did this, we began to become more focused and saw a dramatic difference in the engagement of our students.

If you’ve never defined achievable wins, here are a few tips on getting started.

First, think small. When we think about success, it can be easy to dream about lofty goals. We might want to say something like, a young person will feel called into ministry once a month. While this would be a beautiful outcome, it isn’t necessarily a win that will lead you to recognize each step to achieve that goal.

For instance, for a young person to feel called into vocational ministry, they likely first need to have a faith experience with Jesus. Additionally, they will need time to cultivate a prayer life, both speaking and listening. Also, how do they know what vocational ministry looks like? Have they have never been exposed to it through an internship, service, or learning opportunity?

By thinking small, you make it possible to design a roadmap toward the ultimate outcome you hope to achieve. So what would be an achievable win in this situation? One example might be, “A win is when a young person participates in our leadership learning summer group.”

Second, consider wins that volunteers can own. For instance, a win for a small group leader might be each time they call a parent to brag about that family’s young person. When small group leaders call parents with positive words of affirmation, it helps foster a positive relationship with the parents. 

These are just two ideas that go into creating wins for your ministry. If you want to feel good about the direction of your ministry and want volunteers to stay motivated, consider defining your wins. You might start to finally say, “Hey, I am doing this right!” What tips would you add to this list? We’re rooting for you, ya’ winners!

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

Other Post Topics

Oversharing In Ministry: The Shocking Truth – Are You Guilty?

Posted on by

Matt, who had been serving as a summer youth ministry intern, was excited to share a devotion with his middle school group. It started strong, but as he began to share about a relationship that had ended just a few weeks earlier, he began crying. His cry was not just a little crying but a full-on sobbing type. The middle schoolers felt for him and even showed him great empathy. But the devotional stopped short of Scripture reading, prayer, or even understanding where God was in Matt’s story. 

It wasn’t bad that Matt shared a painful place in his life. The trouble was that he was still living this part of his story. Matt hadn’t reached a place where he could share coherently. Where God was moving in his life was missing in Matt’s story. 

Matt had fallen into the oversharing trap.

Do you know the balance between transparency and oversharing in ministry? Do you know why transparency matters? And have you seen the pitfalls of oversharing?

The Pitfalls of Oversharing In Ministry

At times oversharing can be driven by a desire for sympathy or attention. And the truth is, you may really need someone to empathize with you.

You may feel tired, overworked, or burdened as a leader, so we share our struggles to elicit sympathy. However, this oversharing is ultimately selfish and may not be conducive to building trust and credibility with the young people we serve. 

It is crucial to recognize when we need support. Having appropriate spaces, such as friends, counselors, mentors, or coaches, to share our challenges helps us be the healthiest versions of ourselves. And being healthy makes it possible for us to challenge unhealthy motives for sharing.

Age-Appropriate Sharing

Another aspect of oversharing in ministry is sharing without considering the developmental stages and needs of the young people we serve. It is essential to exercise caution and wisdom when deciding what aspects of our lives to share with young people.

Failing to recognize the appropriateness of our sharing can lead to upset parents and strained relationships. Had Matt gone into further details about his relationship, we may have gotten phone calls from angry youth group parents. Therefore, it is crucial to carefully evaluate our audience’s age and developmental stage before deciding what to share.

Sharing in Challenging Seasons

During times of personal crisis, we may feel compelled to share our experiences and struggles with young people. But you should ask yourself whether you can communicate coherently and have had adequate time to reflect on God’s movement in those spaces. 

Sharing with young people may not achieve the desired outcome when we are still in a painful situation. While it can elicit sympathy and build relationships, it may not be healthy for the spiritual development of young individuals. In such situations, seeking support and leaning on others while being cautious about oversharing is essential.

The Power of Authenticity and Transparency

Finding the balance of transparency and sharing the right amount can deepen our ministry relationships. It invites others into the story God is writing in our lives. Transparency helps build trust with those we serve, which is vital in guiding young people in their faith journey. Authenticity involves being brave enough to be ourselves and genuine enough to live according to our values.

As youth and children’s ministers, we should share appropriate aspects of our lives with our communities. Volunteers need to see that our families are real and our homes are not always perfect. Young people need to hear about our moments of doubt and struggle with our faith. Those in our ministry should witness the highs and lows of our lives, as this cultivates trust and relatability. At the same time, we need to be sure to share appropriately.

Transparency and authenticity are powerful tools that help guide and inspire others on their faith journey. So how do you use them well? In what ways do you avoid the pitfall of oversharing in ministry?

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

Other Post Topics

Maximizing Summer Ministry: Rest or Ramp Up?

beach supplies on a summer day.
Posted on by

Many of us will wrap up our school year within the next few weeks. I have always appreciated the transition into summer ministry because it brings a different pace. The opportunities we have in the summer create a rhythm that is unattainable during the school year.

Over my time in ministry, I have approached the summer with two entirely different philosophies. Philosophy one is drastically less programming and more avenues for relational connections with young people and their families. Philosophy two increases opportunities for young people to engage in ministry programming.

Two Philosophies For Summer Ministry

Less Activity, Big Impact

Philosophy one began from a place of needing rest. The truth is that we ask a lot of our volunteers. Volunteers likely have full-time jobs, families, and many other responsibilities that demand their attention and time. And let’s be honest, volunteering every week for an entire school year is a lot to ask of them. In the context of a small ministry, when your volunteers are one of your greatest assets, reducing your programming during the summer may be one of the best moves you can make. 

Here are a few ideas for you if this is your philosophy:

Give volunteers the summer off. Let them know they are invited, but your top priority is that they are ready and energized for the fall.

Schedule easy options that encourage relationship-building among young people. These can look like you and another adult meeting young people at Chick-fil-a for lunch, followed by a movie or putt-putt.

Use your downtime to work on the stuff many of us hate, administration. During this season, you can re-work your student leadership applications, policies, handbooks, communication strategies, and more. You likely have more breathing room than you do in October. So use that time to make your life easier later.

Rest, rest, rest. Let me say that again, find ways to rest. Summer can create an excellent space for us to find physical, emotional, and spiritual rest. 

Greater Activity, Big Impact

Philosophy two arose from a growing ministry I saw as having expanded opportunities. We experienced great success in the school year, and the team felt energized to keep moving forward. The tension was this, my team and I still needed rest. So how do I help the team feel a positive movement forward, capitalizing on the trend we are experiencing, while also making space for rest? Within these tensions, I developed a plan to alleviate some work from myself and the volunteers.

Youth Ministry Certification interest image

Here are a few examples of what this philosophy looked like in the ministry I served: 

Create multiple low-risk, low-cost, and high-potential gatherings. These gatherings were highly focused on our missional purpose. One example would be opportunities to serve within the local community for a day, afternoon, or even a few hours.

Integrate leadership development for the next school year into your activities. For us, this meant creating Leadership Labs designed to give students basic leadership fundamentals and expose them to what it looks like to serve in student leadership.

Develop an internship program. The intern does not mean free labor. A good internship should provide housing, pay, and professional growth opportunities. We required reading and reflection. It also meant that I allowed interns to own pieces of the program. The ownership gave them space to grow and learn while also allowing me to focus my attention elsewhere.

Finally, rest was still essential, but it looked different. In my first philosophy, I rested throughout the summer. In this philosophy, rest was scheduled for the final weeks of summer before the school year began. We would have zero programming for the last two weeks of summer.

Now, these are only two possible philosophies for your time this summer. There are other options and many more variations. The key is understanding what your volunteers need, what you need, and what will help the ministry you serve the most next school year. Learn to balance these three things in a healthy way, and you’ll reap significant benefits.

So how will you spend your summer? What will the youth or children’s ministry you serve look like in the coming weeks?

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

Other Post Topics

Five-Minute Mentoring: Web of Joys and Complaints | Season 4: Episode 10

Posted on by

The Making Sense of Ministry podcast is on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

Have you ever had someone complain, and now it’s all you can think about? Have complaints ruined a meaningful moment in ministry? In this Five-Minute Mentoring episode, Brian discusses the interwoven web of joys and complaints. Understanding this web can help you stay positive and joy-filled as you serve in ministry.

Resources Mentioned
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

Show Transcript

Brian Lawson:

Welcome to the Making Sense of Ministry podcast. The podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry, transform lives, and impact generations. I’m Brian Lawson here with another Five Minute Mentoring episode.

Not too long ago, I experienced something unlike anything I have ever experienced before, and yet at the same time it is maybe not that different than your experiences. 

After our Sunday morning worship service, I went over to our Fellowship Hall. I entered the hall excited to have some cake and celebrate young people and the decisions they had made for Jesus. After all, we had just celebrated a baptism and confirmations of faith. It was a joyous occasion and a great day.

As I began walking across the room, toward the young people and let’s be honest the cake, I was stopped. This particular individual decided to share with me a lengthy discourse about her feelings. She made it very clear to me, and to everyone else in the room, how upset she was that we did not have fruit available that morning. And when I say discourse, that’s probably an understatement. She was vividly angry, using nearly every curse word without concern about who would hear her. Yes, that morning, I was cussed out for a lack of fruit during fellowship time.

I wonder, have you ever had such an encounter? Perhaps not so wild, but I’m sure you’ve experienced these moments. What is supposed to be a joyous and celebratory occasion becomes spoiled by something or someone.

Maybe you just had an amazing experience presenting Bibles to third graders, when a member of the congregation expresses that they are upset because you gave out, quote, the wrong translation. Or you arrive home from a meaningful weekend retreat only to discover that a young person broke some of your rules on the trip. Now you will have to go back and talk with that teen and their family about their behavior.

All of this got me thinking about a lesson I learned several years ago. In ministry, no matter what age level of ministry you serve, the wins you experience are often interwoven with mistakes, complaints, problems, or challenges. 

You were thrilled to give out Bibles to those third graders. What an exciting time! And now, all you can think about is the one complaint from someone who doesn’t even have children in your program. 

Or, on that retreat, you saw teens praying with one another and engaging their faith in a profoundly new way. But, you now have to deal with the troublemaker. And you quickly forget all the good and now dread the phone call to their parents.

Ministry is wins and pains interwoven together into a complex web. And this web can be difficult to work through. It can suffocate our joy, our positive momentum, and even our passion for our call and our Lord.

So what do you do?

Whenever I have experiences as I did, when someone felt a lack of fruit was worth giving me an ear full, I first try to recognize what is happening. Recognize that it was a good day of ministry. That there were meaningful things happening.

Next, I write them down. Write the bad and the good.

Here’s one recommendation you could try. Take out a piece of paper. Make two columns. 

In one column write all the good stuff. A young person was baptized. Young people confirmed their faith. Five children were given third-grade bibles. Juniors in high school engaged their faith more deeply.

In the second column, write down the bad. An upset person about fruit. Someone thought we should give out different translations. A young person broke the rules on the retreat. 

Now, rip that paper right down the middle, right down the middle of the columns. Keep the side with the good stuff. Write those in your journal or put it on your bulletin board. Those are the things that you share with your leaders, your congregation, your parents, and yourself. Those are the things that you need to hold onto. They give life.

And that other side, burn it. Tear it up. Scribble all over it. Those things, in the long run, often do not matter. Yes, you might need to deal with them still. You might need to clean up a few messes and try to avoid them in the future. You can learn from them. But do not let those be the things that keep hold of you. 

Ministry is complex because people are complex. And as we serve we will encounter this interwoven web of joys and pains. We will see our wins suffocated by complaints. But it doesn’t have to stay that way.

Take the time to reflect on your wins, pull them out of the web, write them down, and remember them. Share them with others. Don’t let the person angry about fruit, steal the gift of what God is doing in your life, and the lives of the young people in your ministry.

Friends, that’s all I have for you today. Until next time, I hope we’ve helped you, make sense of this thing we call ministry.

On Feeling Spiritually Dry In Ministry & Is It Time To Quite | Season 4: Episode 9

Posted on by

The Making Sense of Ministry podcast is on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

Everyone goes through seasons of feeling spiritually dry. Perhaps that is you right now. You may even wonder if it is time to quit children’s or youth ministry. In this episode, Brian and Kirsten discuss being spiritually dry and how to move forward in a positive way.

Resources Mentioned
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Brian Lawson:  00:00

Youth Ministry Institute original podcast

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Making Sense Ministry Podcast. I’m Brian back with Kirsten. Hey, Kirsten.

Kirsten Knox:  00:13

Hey, Brian.

Brian Lawson:  00:14

And this is the podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry transform lives and impact generations. So I wonder, have you ever been outside on a really hot day, and not only outside on a really hot day, but a day where you had like, no water, or very little to drink? And I can’t help as I’m saying, just I’m saying I can’t help but think about mission trips. Right? Especially work worksite type mission trips where you’re out working all day long and is so hot, because you know, we always have those in the summertime.

Kirsten Knox:  00:48

Yes.

Brian Lawson:  00:49

Or, I guess spring break. You know, some people do that. But, but that’s kind of like what we’re talking about today, you know, is, is this idea of what if our spiritual life feels like that very hot day? The very hot day where you’re outside, it’s hot. There’s nothing to drink. And you just, it’s just exhausting and and feels very dry. And I wonder if Kiersten for you and I to share? I wonder if we’ve ever been in a place that we would describe as spiritual dryness or some might say a spiritual desert, it feels like.

Kirsten Knox:  01:28

Yes.

Brian Lawson:  01:29

I mean, and when you’re leaving ministry, to be in that place is even more, I think, weighs on you even more.

Kirsten Knox:  01:38

Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think I think most people in ministry, again, we’re gonna normalize what sometimes we feel like isn’t normal, or that we can’t say out loud, because we’re leaders is that it is normal to go through seasons where you first feel spiritually dry. There’s this ebbs and flow to our spiritual growth and to expect accept that and expect that I think is helpful.

Brian Lawson:  02:02

Yeah, absolutely. I know that there have been seasons in my ministry where, where I just led out of what was curriculum, because inside, I didn’t feel like I had much. And that’s not a great place to be, it doesn’t feel wonderful. And I think often you don’t get there overnight. Right? Most of the time you get there. It’s a long trending direction that leads you to a place where you feel distant from God or you sometimes I would even say you’re uncertain whether or not you even follow Jesus anymore. I actually know a pastor who experienced that on Easter morning, and he’s waiting for service to start. He was sitting there unsure whether or not he even believed in Jesus at that point in time. And he was having a really hard season. So it does, it happens. It happens, it happened.

Kirsten Knox:  02:58

Yes. And I think when you’re in that space, it’s important to say that out loud, say that to someone that you love and that you trust, that can be a safe place for you to be able to communicate that I think just saying it is there’s power in that, to be able to say that in then because I think if we’re not careful that spiritual dryness, particularly for leading ministry, can also come with narratives that we think about ourselves that are untrue.

So I’m like, for me, one of my strategies in that space is I want to spend more time talking to myself than listening to myself. Because I’m like, when I get in those spots, I mean, the narrative isn’t good in my head. And so I’m like, I’m gonna speak what is true to myself. I’m a, I mean, I’m a big proponent of self talk. So that is true. And I practice that. Maybe regularly. Sometimes my husband says, hooray. And I’m like, I’m just talking to myself. No joke. The other day, we were sitting watching TV, and I was doing something with my hands. Like, because I talked with my aunt, he, he’s like, What are you doing? I’m like, Oh, I was talking to myself. Like, I thought that’s what you were doing. Sounds like, yes,

Brian Lawson:  04:14

There’s a lot. There’s a line in cars. The first Cars movie were the Model T car. I believe it’s a Model T says you keep talking to yourself. People gonna think you’re crazy. And Lightning McQueen goes, thanks. And she goes, Huh? Oh, yeah. Okay, that’s where my mind went. But yeah, I just think it’s, it’s good to acknowledge that this happens and perhaps maybe to the person listening, they just need to stop the episode now. And say that to themselves like I am at a place where I am spiritually dry as acknowledgment or maybe they need to write it down a few times. You know, we’re like write, write a note to God. Got a spiritual driver? Now I’m not even sure that you’re eating this, nor that you’re here.

Brian Lawson:  05:06

A friend’s Are you currently serving in a church as a youth or children’s minister, perhaps a family minister, and you want to grow in your leadership, gain some new skills and build confidence? Well, we at the youth ministry Institute offer a certification program both for youth and children’s ministers. And this is designed to help those of you who are already serving to accelerate both your leadership skills and your understanding of ministry. It’s a cohort based program that starts twice a year. And so we are currently recruiting new students to join the next cohort. So if you’re interested, reach out to us at Why am institute.com. And now back to the podcast episode.

Kirsten Knox:  05:49

Yes, and I would write out I like to journal so that that speaks to me. But I would write or say all the questions and the doubts I have in that space. Right? Like, just spend time speaking it out loud, I would speak it to, you know, out loud to God, I’d also speak it to somebody else that here’s what I’m wondering, right? I’m in this place of doubt, I’m in this place of questioning, I’m in this place of wondering, Where’s God when I need him? Like, all of those things are true. So I’m like, I think there’s, yeah, I would say it out loud and get it out. Because if not, it just stays inside, right of being able to allow and give yourself freedom to live in the space in which you communicate. Because I also think it’s helpful to think if your friend came to you and said this to you. What would you say to them? I’d give them permission to be in that space. I’d want to talk about their doubts, right? I’d want to do all that. So can I live in the space that I tell people to live into when they’re in that space? It’s true for me as much as it’s true for them. I don’t know why sometimes I think it’s not like I live above that or something. Which I like, I don’t but you sometimes feel that way. I think when we’re in that space.

Brian Lawson:  06:57

Ministry folks often have a tendency tendency to be more gentle with the people they’re caring for than themselves.

Kirsten Knox:  07:04

Yes. And all in all kinds of things. Right. Like, I think that’s true. Yeah. The other things that I know has been helpful to me is go to the go back to the whale, the well, the well, not whale. So well. Jonah did right, there you go. So might be something there hop on one. Know the well, where are you found water last? Like, what was I doing? Where was I was a place was a place in Scripture was an act of spiritual discipline, whatever that was where I felt God’s presence and him speaking to me to go back to that and try it and maybe it works. And maybe right, maybe I need to try something else. But that’s also one of the things I’m like, How do I do that?

For me, that oftentimes means being around water. Because I feel God’s presence differently when in calming, like when I’m in water, so much so that recently, I Well, I guess in the fall started walking as a habit a few times a week. And when it first started, my friend saw me by water cuz we walked by water. And she’s like, what’s going on? She texts me what’s going on in your life? Cuz she knows my water? Oh, yeah. She was like you are? You are, like on a How am I going to spend time because she knows like, when life is hard, and I’m trying to figure things out, that’s where you’ll find me. Because that is the space that helps assure me into being able to speak to and hear from God. So Brian, when you get in those spaces, what have you learned what has helped you?

Brian Lawson:  08:36

I think if I go back to what spiritual dryness looks like, when it manifests itself in my life, you know, oftentimes it looks like impatience. Or maybe I’m, I’m a little bit more stern with people than I should be. I don’t offer as much grace, perhaps because I don’t feel like I have it myself. Maybe I don’t know. But, you know, those are just a few signs. For me. Also, when I really struggle, when I am healthy, I feel like I could get up and teach scripture pretty easily. When I’m unhealthy, it’s a real challenge. And so, I mean, built into our coaching curriculum, that when we coach people with youth ministry is a constant check in on how they’re doing personally.

And part of that is their spiritual health. Like, how are you doing? spiritually? And so I think, for me, and for those listening, it’s probably really good first to recognize the signs that say, you’re probably going down that path, because the sooner you recognize it, the easier it is, I think to come out of but, but I also don’t want to imply that if a person finds them selves, they’re that they’ve done this horrible, terrible, terrible thing, because it’s not true, because sometimes we just end up there, and we don’t, we don’t know why. So I think recognizing for me, what has gotten me to that place, or what have I stopped doing that I was doing or what am I started doing that I shouldn’t shouldn’t be doing? Like, am I saying yes, to too many things, for instance, would be something you started that you should, you shouldn’t be doing. So recognizing it has always been super important. First off for me. The second is, it takes me a little bit of time to be gentle with myself, because usually, I’m just mad at myself for that for a little while. But then, then I pick up one thing. So I just try one thing.

And so that one thing could be that I need rest more that the one thing could be that I need to journal more about a full honesty with where I am to God. And it’s how when I do it, it’s often I’m writing it to God. So it’s essentially a prayer it’s written. And it’s not real thought out. It’s just a word vomit, if you will. Or perhaps there’s been times where I’ve done. Like, I picked up the Book of Common Prayer, and said, I don’t have the words, I don’t know even what I need to be saying right now. But this has words, and I’m going to start here. And maybe those words will speak to me and through me, and become my prayer without me even realizing it. And then the other is, obviously, perhaps it’s time to start a new habit of Scripture reading or something like that. So those are a few. So for me, it’s one thing like, what is one thing that I can start, instead of trying to tackle this whole big beast of spiritual dryness? Let’s just start one thing.

Kirsten Knox:  11:32

And, and that one thing doesn’t have to be like you mentioned, like rest. So I think when we oftentimes if I’m feeling spiritually drained, I’m going to add one thing with common to go to something that feels spiritual. So a spiritual discipline versus saying, I’m willing to rest. So remember that we are physical, physical, spiritual, emotional beings. And so how I mean, spiritual dryness affects all of that. So maybe it’s one of those other pieces? I think that’s, yeah, I mean, that’s really helpful. We don’t always think about that.

Brian Lawson:  12:05

Yeah, I’ve mentioned before that I paint and not like paint houses, but paint paintings. And some really, that started out of ministry being this thing that you do constantly, without ever seeing physical, tangible results, like you see an event, yes. But you do the event, and then you don’t see, you know, you don’t necessarily see the direct transformations happening in or within people. You know, you see the program, but not always a final result. It’s because it’s never final because these are people and there’s always change happening. So I needed something that I could do and see completion, like to see it done. And so for me, it was a picked up painting, and that was part of my struggle spiritually is like, I need to fill closure, somehow, on something, you know, like, I know, some people, they mow their yards and mowing the yard, they can see a finished product. Yeah, you know, I mean, whatever that looks like, but that was one for me that you wouldn’t necessarily call spiritual, but was actually in fact, spiritual. For me, at least at the beginning. Right, you know, and that’s where that’s where it started, for sure.

Kirsten Knox:  13:10

Yeah, I think that, right, be thinking through that being curious, processing, reflecting on all those things, and not being ashamed to be in that space. All those things are helpful. And for me, oftentimes it is I mean, I go back, sometimes I feel like I’ve done things or like you said, haven’t done things to get me here. And sometimes it’s life has just happened. And life hurts. Yeah, and there really isn’t anything that is just where we are. I’ve also found that I think it’s helpful to share those things, when I’m in a place to be able to share them, but in healthy ways to be able to do that with those who you serve in their ministry, one for your volunteers, because it normalizes that, it makes you become more relatable because they have experienced that through so they’re like, Oh, that is that is okay. And also you get to teach through your struggles and through your doubts. Like we say, It’s okay to do that. Then it’s okay for students or children to know inappropriate ways, right? Like, I struggle and I have questions time, there’s sometimes I don’t feel God’s presence. Yeah, for long times. Right. And there are times when I feel like God and I are moving and there’s times when I’m like, Well, I know you’re here because I believe it. Right, but I I could not tell you for any other reason. Yeah.

Brian Lawson:  14:27

Yeah, I think there was a phrase I heard years ago that I that stuck with me is that that at some point in time, your emotions will catch up to what you know. Yeah. So if you if you stick to what you know, some point time your emotions will catch back up to that place. The so staying consistent in that way. The other thing, which is similar, is don’t make any decisions too quickly. You know, like you’re fearing spiritual draw I, that doesn’t mean you quit ministry right now. It doesn’t, that doesn’t mean go out and quit today or tomorrow or even next month. You know, I would say be patient. You know, what you what you what you value, you know what you believe, even if you don’t feel it right now. And now, if it’s been six months, a year, you’ve done effort to try to regain that spiritual health, you’ve been talking to people, perhaps you have a mentor or friends around you, perhaps you have a counselor or spiritual advisor, you’ve done these things, and you’re still really struggling, then maybe, maybe you make some decisions, but don’t make quick decisions, you know, without really putting in that effort, because we all go through this. So,

Kirsten Knox:  15:48

Yeah, and I like to spend time in Scripture while people were going through the same thing to it makes me feel not alone, right. I’m like, I oftentimes spend time in Psalms, when that is true for my life. I’m like, Yes, we’re gonna go do this. So I think that is helpful to be able for me to think about who else has walked this because those are people that I admire in Scripture, but I also recognize that they’re human. And I think sometimes we miss that. And we to allow yourself to be human, to surround yourself with people, whether that’s through Scripture through people through counseling, there’s lots of different ways to be able to do that.

Brian Lawson:  16:23

Yeah. And I can’t help but to think about Jesus. And I know we’re getting into a little bit theology, and we try not to go too far there. But but when we just think about the human nature of Jesus, that Jesus, there’s some indication, I think that you can make a fair argument, there’s some indication that Jesus wasn’t really excited to go the cross, right? I mean, like, let’s be really excited to face what Jesus was gonna face. You know, he’s sweating blood, like, this is an indication there’s something significant happening here. And I think it’s fair to say that Jesus feelings weren’t always there. Right? Like Jesus was like, Yes, let’s go. But Jesus knew what Jesus needed to do. And Jesus kept going. And so I think if you know, you know, you’re called to ministry, you know, you care about young people, you know, God loves you, you know, God loves them. And you’re going to, you’re going to keep working that direction. Even if internally you’re, you’re feeling uncertain. But I’m also at the same time going to invest in my spiritual health as well, and try to find ways to do that. I think that’s the best place to land in my mind. And to just recognize, as we said, that every buddy in ministry goes through seasons like this, your season may not be exactly like mine. Kirsten’s reasons, not exactly like yours. But we all go through this, and it’s normal.

Kirsten Knox:  17:47

Yes. Be gentle with yourself. Just as you are gentle with other people.

Brian Lawson:  17:52

Yep. Yep. Okay, anything else? Here’s Any final thoughts or, or? Yeah, I would just say, stick with what you know, and invest in something to try to quench that spiritual dryness that you’re facing. And remember, you’re not alone. You’re going through. So and if you need us to finish it, we’re here for you to to support you on that way. All right, friends, I hope that’s helpful to you, and, and hope we’d help you make sense this thing we call ministry.

To learn more, how we might guide you towards success and youth or children’s ministries, head over to YM institute.com

Hiring: Four Ways Your Interviews Can Be Better

Posted on by

Have you ever sat in bad interviews? These happen all the time in our churches. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

As a church, finding the right person to lead your Youth or Children’s Ministry is crucial to the spiritual growth and development of the young members of your congregation. The interview stage is one common area where churches make mistakes in their hiring process. Often it is a hiring team, made up of volunteers with perhaps a staff member or two, that is asked to host quality interviews. And even worse, they are often not prepared with the best questions, understanding of the role they are looking to fulfill, and how to interview in a professional and consistent manner.

We believe conducting effective interviews is a critical step in the hiring process to ensure you select the best candidate for the role. Here are four ideas on how your church can conduct interviews well and make a wise hiring decision.

Four Ways To Better Interviews

Clearly Define the Job Description and Expectations

Before starting the interview process, it’s essential to have a well-defined job description and clear expectations for the role of your church’s Youth or Children’s Minister. This includes outlining the position’s responsibilities, qualifications, and desired skills. Be sure to communicate this information to potential candidates before the interview so they clearly understand what the role entails. During the interview, ask specific questions about the job description to assess the candidate’s suitability for the position.

Free Interview Questions Download

Assess Cultural Fit and Passion for Ministry

In addition to evaluating the candidate’s qualifications and experience, assessing their cultural fit with your church’s values, mission, and vision is essential. Youth and Children’s Ministers play a vital role in shaping the spiritual lives of young people and their families, so it’s crucial to find someone who shares your church’s beliefs and values.

Ask questions that help you understand the candidate’s personal faith journey, passion for ministry, and alignment with your church’s core values. Assessing cultural fit and passion for ministry will ensure that the candidate is qualified and a good fit for the unique needs of your church’s Youth or Children’s Ministry.

Utilize a Structured Interview Process

Having a structured interview process is crucial to ensure consistency and fairness in evaluating candidates. Develop a list of relevant interview questions that assess the candidate’s skills, experience, and suitability for the role. (We’ve created a free resource with some of the best questions you can ask in your interview.)

Consider including behavioral-based questions that ask the candidate to provide specific examples of how they have handled situations in the past. This can help you assess their problem-solving skills, leadership style, and ability to handle challenging situations that may arise in a Youth or Children’s Ministry setting. Utilize a scoring system or evaluation rubric to assess each candidate’s responses and qualifications objectively. (Did you know we help our Hiring Services clients develop their rubric and teach them to use it effectively? We’d love to help you in your search!)

Involve Multiple Stakeholders in the Interview Process

Involving multiple stakeholders in the interview process can provide a well-rounded perspective on the candidate’s suitability for the role. This can include members of the church leadership team, current Youth or Children’s Ministry volunteers, parents, and other relevant staff members. Each stakeholder can bring a unique perspective and evaluate the candidate based on their specific area of expertise or stage of life. Collaboratively discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate can help your church make a more informed hiring decision.

Conducting interviews for your church’s Youth or Children’s Minister is a critical step in the hiring process. By clearly defining the job description, assessing cultural fit and passion for ministry, utilizing a structured interview process, and involving multiple stakeholders, your church can conduct interviews well and make a wise hiring decision that aligns with your church’s vision and values. Remember to pray for guidance and discernment throughout the process, seeking God’s wisdom in selecting the right person to lead your church’s Youth or Children’s Ministry.

Other Post Topics

Five-Minute Mentoring: Knowing Your Audience

Posted on by

The Making Sense of Ministry podcast is on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

In this episode of Five-Minute Mentoring, we explore knowing your audience and why it may be one of your best ways to gain respect from both parents and church members while creating stronger relationships with young people.

Resources For You
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Kirsten on Facebook, Instagram, or Linkedin.

Support the show

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Kirsten Knox:  00:08

Welcome to the Making Sense of ministry podcast. The podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry transform lives and impact generations. I’m Kirsten Knox here with another five minute mentoring episode. So today I’m here with you talking about how knowing your audience can greatly impact your credibility as a leader. Being intentional about knowing your audience is one sure way to help you gain credibility with those you lead, and not knowing your audience will cause you to lose credibility fast.

Kirsten Knox:  00:41

Have you ever wondered how you could gain more credibility with those you lead? Maybe often you feel like parents or your supervisor is second guessing your decisions. Or maybe you wonder why often it feels like you aren’t being treated like a professional. Perhaps you have a credibility problem. Or maybe you are newer in your position and looking for ways to gain credibility with those you lead. First, you want to understand the different audiences you serve.

In ministry, you serve a number of audiences and generations, it’s easy to focus on the primary audience you serve and forget about the other audiences. For example, if you are a children’s minister, it is easy to focus on building credibility and trust with children and their parents. If you only focus on these two audiences, you will always struggle with gaining credibility within the church and the community.

Kirsten Knox:  01:38

As the children’s Minister you have multiple audiences you serve. Of course, children and parents are two of your audiences. But there are more the congregation, church leadership, key influencers in the church, other staff members in the community are important audiences to remember. Think of it this way. As the leader of the ministry, you are responsible for telling the narrative of the ministry to each of these audiences. When you do this, you’ll notice your credibility increases.

I wonder for you, which audience oftentimes gets neglected? As you ponder that question, create one or two ways you can tell the narrative of your ministry to that audience this month. Once you find the best ways to communicate with each audience, it’s not a one and done, repetition is key. Once you identify your audiences in your context, the second thing you want to do is adjust your communication style for each audience. In communication, one size doesn’t fit all.

Kirsten Knox:  02:40

When you are sending a message to those in your professional setting, through email, text or promotional material. Be mindful of your audience. This is going to help you determine a couple key things. It will help you determine the style in which you write and the level of formality, it will change based on your audience. If you have texted a student lately, you may have wondered when one sentence starts and the other ends. If you’re like me, maybe you’ve had to read it a couple of times, because it is common for them not to use punctuation or capital letters. If you’re writing a student, you can match their style. However, if you are texting an adult use punctuation and capital letters. This may seem like a small thing, but it will increase your credibility and raise the level of professionalism of your ministry. Effective leaders adjust their style of communication per audience.

Kirsten Knox:  03:39

Not only will knowing your audience help you determine how you communicate, you also want to adjust how you dress. Some days you’re playing on the ground with kids or outside play messy games with students. Other days you’re in the office working and having meetings with your coworkers and supervisor. And then other days you find yourself working as you attend school plays, sporting events and more. And then on other working days you are at worship on Sunday mornings.

When I first started in youth ministry, I remember wondering as the leader how to dress at these different functions. I was young and leading adults twice my age, I knew how I dress would impact my credibility. This was my first professional job and I was really trying to discern how casual or formal I needed to dress. I had a mentor say to me when you are trying to decide the appropriate dress attire for different functions, dress equal to those you are meeting with. That makes sense to me. And it helped me many times in the last 20 plus years of ministry, what you wear, communicate something, be intentional about what you want to communicate.

Kirsten Knox:  04:50

At a youth minister say to me once they just treat me like a big kid, meaning the adults in the church. I asked a few questions to help me understand more about what he was experiencing in that conversation I realized he lived in shirts and T shirts. I encouraged him to adjust his attire based on the setting and audience. He noticed when he made this change, people experienced him differently and his credibility grew within the church. Leaders who gain credibility and build trust within their ministries are intentional about knowing their audience and making adjustments accordingly. Well, friends that’s it for today’s five-minute mentoring episode. I hope we’ve helped you make sense of this thing we call ministry.

On Drama In Ministry | Season 4: Episode 7

Drama in ministry - fighting like cats and dogs
Posted on by

The Making Sense of Ministry podcast is on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

Have you ever experienced drama in your ministry? No matter the age group we serve, there will be drama. In this episode, Kirsten and Brian discuss the drama they have experienced in ministry and how they handle it.

Resources Mentioned
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Kirsten on Facebook, Instagram, or Linkedin.

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Brian Lawson:  00:00

Welcome back to another episode of The Making Sense Ministry podcast. This is the podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry, transform lives and impact generations. I’m Brian back here with Kirsten. And we are going to talk about something that I know that we all love. But before we get there, my oldest daughter is in drama at school. And so they are getting ready for their play. And she’s in middle school. And so I am the typical dad. And what I mean by that is I pick her up on Wednesdays after her drama practice. And I always say so, are you feeling dramatic?

Kirsten Knox:  00:36

She loves that. I bet.

Brian Lawson:  00:38

The first time she laughed, and every time since she said, What does that even mean? So of course, now, I say that every time and I always will say that. Because you know, that’s what I’m supposed to do.

Kirsten Knox:  00:51

That’s because you’re like, I don’t know if you think this is funny, but it makes me laugh and that is valuable.

Brian Lawson:  00:57

And making you feel uncomfortable makes it even better for me. So I’m just gonna keep doing it.

Kirsten Knox:  01:02

I’m gonna entertaining myself.

Brian Lawson:  01:05

So today, Kirsten we’re going to talk all about drama, not the acting kind. But the drama that we see with young people sometimes, you know, whether that’s in their relationships, or in a small group, where people are fighting, and they can’t get along, whatever it might look like, because we all know you’ve been around long enough you’ll see it. There’s drama sometimes. Yes. So how do we as the ministry leaders navigate that with the people in the middle of the drama, the people around the drama, you know, the collateral damage, if you will? And how do we re focus them? So that’s our topic for today.

Kirsten Knox:  01:46

You know, just a small topic, and this is small.

Brian Lawson:  01:49

That not many people deal with I’m sure, I’m sure.

Kirsten Knox:  01:51

Maybe you’ve dealt with this. Maybe it’s rare.

Brian Lawson:  01:55

Oh, so the last ministry that I was at for quite a while, it wasn’t long after I started, I’d say I was there probably like four months. And I had to have a meeting with the junior and senior girls, small group, to try to help them reconcile enough to navigate the rest of the school year, because they just couldn’t get along. And the root of the problem within this particular situation was one boy had dated like four of them.

Kirsten Knox:  02:26

Listen, when you were thinking that I’m like, listen, I had that it was exact same thing. And my I was thinking about as you were talking about that, that’s hilarious. I’m like date outside the ministry.

Brian Lawson:  02:36

Yes. One boy had dated like for them. And it didn’t help that he was really popular in school. He was really popular in the ministry, like, everywhere he went, I mean, that’s just the kind of person he is anyways, like, he’s very charismatic, people enjoy being around him. So that didn’t help. And then they all didn’t like each other because of the whole situation. So here I am, way past this stage in life, never myself ever been. I don’t think I’m very dramatic person anyways. And so how do I navigate that whole situation?

Kirsten Knox:  03:06

Yes. So Brian, we’re dying to know, what did you do?

Brian Lawson:  03:09

I don’t know that I navigated it very well. I’m not sure. I mean, in truth, we met, I met with our small group leaders and the girls, and we let them share what they were experiencing, and their frustrations and their anger and their hurts, too. And so I listened. I wrote it all down, probably still have it sitting in a file somewhere. I don’t know. Maybe it’s still at the church filing cabinet there. But that was it. That was it. We listened. And then I think I may have pushed them if they could hear each other a little better. Like, can you hear one another? And I’m not asking you to be best friends. Like, I’m not asking you to, you know, to do everything together. I’m just asking you can you be kind to one another? So that’s essentially what I did. I don’t know if that was good or bad. I will say the small group never really functioned great.

Kirsten Knox:  03:56

Yeah, it’s hard in that space, right? You’re like, yes, great, may not be the measuring stick just to function.

Brian Lawson:  04:04

Oh, Grant, you this was like 12 years ago, this was several years ago, I don’t know if I even would have set up the small group that way now. But that’s what was set up when I got there at the time. So.

Kirsten Knox:  04:13

Anytime you’re dealing with drama, I think it’s important to create space for them to listen to one another, or just to be heard whether that’s one on one, which happens probably a lot with us that someone is having some drama. So we spend time with him one on one listening, but also given the opportunity to hear from one another and set that pathway. How do we want to be if we’re all choosing to be in this group? How do we want to be here? What do we want this experience to be like for ourselves? And what do we want this experience to be like for each other? So then what are we going to commit to make that happen? Right, like I think those are life skills. I tell our students a lot. We are practicing relationships here. This is a safe place for you to practice, which means there are times you’re gonna get it right. And there are times you’re gonna get it wrong, but I think that opportunity like Brian put them around and listening. What a great way to practice conflict.

Brian Lawson:  05:01

Yeah, it was uncomfortable for me. I’m gonna tell you just, I was like, I don’t even know what I’m doing. Like, I wanted to be like, listen, the boys moved on from all four of you. So let’s just move on, because he’s not dating any of you.

Kirsten Knox:  05:14

You notice the boys aren’t having conflict.

Brian Lawson:  05:19

Which, of course, is not very empathetic of me. Hence the reason I did it, but I wanted to say that.

Kirsten Knox:  05:24

Yeah, I did pull the one, one of my boys side and I was like, Can you not date another girl in the youth ministry, like after the fourth one, I feel like there’s probably girls at your school. It would be great for you to date. He just laughed. I might get I’m not really teasing. And then he ended up marrying one. Later, that wasn’t even a part of the four was like his best friend in high school. And now most of them are friends and hang out together. I’m like, it’s crazy. Maturity looks good on all of us.

Brian Lawson:  05:57

As funny as we say, girls, but let’s intrude boys are very dramatic, too. It just looks. It looks, you know, and usually for them, it’s at least my experience has been, they’re throwing a basketball at someone who made them angry. Yes. Or they’re trying to wrestle him to the ground or somehow show that they’re tougher than them. Which is really their expression of being dramatic. Yeah.

Kirsten Knox:  06:16

Yeah, it’s true. I’m like, we both have it. It just looks different. Yeah. tends to look I mean generalizations but tend to look different.

Brian Lawson:  06:25

So Kiersten Have you had any of those encounters particular that you can think of in ministry or, or the training.

Kirsten Knox:  06:30

I had one that was you’re talking about similar, and then I, we had two mission trips back to back that were awful. And I remember coming back, same, basically, same difficulties, and the some of the same students who had also been part of that drama with a boyfriend. So now we’re spending a week away with each other. I mean, I was like, I don’t know if I want to do this anymore. This is awful. But we came back. And I’m like, Well, I guess we’re having a parent’s meeting, which is not typical to do afterwards. And set up a very, there’s the things you develop afterwards, because you’ve needed to, and then like now we have a code of conduct for how we are going to be here.

And what I really wanted parents to know is when that is broken, what are the steps so that they were aware of that because I almost hate to send kids home, and I’ve only done it one time. So I try hard not to do that. But I also recognized in this space, we were probably that was probably going to happen. So how do I on the front end set that up that parents recognize this is what we’re going to do and know that step. So we put in a three step program, like three steps of how we would deal with conflict. And that was hard to be able to do.

And truthfully I want to handle I have parents oftentimes say to me, because I have a couple guys who are just, I say they feel deeply. And they don’t know what to do with that. Like, they don’t know how to manage that. And a couple of their parents are always concerned that they’re a problem. And like they’re not a problem. They feel deeply like, and they don’t know what to do with those emotions. So we’re gonna work through it.

But my hope is that we do it in such a way here that I don’t have to, like, I’m not calling their parents and telling them that most of the time, right, because I want to be able to deal with it and to move on. And for it to be a place where that happens. But yeah, I’m like when you get a group that they’ve had a lot of conflict, it’s hard. This is what I said to the pastor when I had that happen. I was like, listen, in four years, they’re gone, I will outlive them.

Brian Lawson:  08:28

And that is always the answer.

Kirsten Knox:  08:30

Like, listen, I outlive them because the youngest, I think in that group that was having the conflict was a freshman. I’m like, four years. That’s the thing here.

Brian Lawson:  08:38

Now, Kristen. Are you saying that you’ve said you would wait out a young person?

Kirsten Knox:  08:43

I did. I did. I was like this, I called him. I would not say this publicly. Well, I guess I’m getting ready to but to them at that time, this was years ago. But I would come the mean girls, and like we have the mean girls in our group. And I hate that. And I’m like so we you know, you do the things you have the meanings, you set the end, at the end of the day, I will be here after you. And then many of them came back and volunteered with me. Like when they were college age and young adults, which was hilarious to me because they would get mad at some of the behavior that they did.

Brian Lawson:  09:14

Which is often the case, right? We usually get most upset with the things that we’re terrible at. Not always, but often. I feel like the thing that annoys you the most you probably lead me to look yourself because it’s probably there somehow.

Kirsten Knox:  09:27

Yeah, I was like, yeah, that’s rough.

Brian Lawson:  09:33

Hey, friends, are you currently serving in a church as a youth or children’s minister, perhaps a family minister and you want to grow in your leadership, gain some new skills and build confidence? Well, we at the youth ministry Institute offer a certification program both for youth and children’s ministers, and this is designed to help those of you who are already serving to accelerate both your leadership skills and your understanding of ministry. It’s a cohort based program, that starts twice a year. And so we are currently recruiting new students to join the next cohort. So if you’re interested, reach out to us at yminstitute.com. And now back to the podcast.

Brian Lawson:  10:16

So thinking about drama. So I’ve also seen it happen among small group leaders like the actual adults, themselves, which that one always upset me the most, because I’m like, you’re the adult here, like you’re trying to mentor young people, and yet you yourselves can’t get along. So that always frustrated me the most. And I have since learned that even if you’re 85, it’s still there. Like the dramas still there, like the potential for it.

So thinking about that, do you think kind of real quick, we could clarify some things to help somebody navigate drama once it’s occurred? And then I’m wondering, are there things we could do ahead of time to minimize its potential impact, or maybe even stop from happening in first place? Let’s start first with his dramatic drama, the drama has already happened. They’re dramatic. There’s conflict among a small group or a group of young people? How do we navigate that?

Kirsten Knox:  11:11

I think the first one is you want to be curious, ask questions, and give them space to talk into process, how they’re feeling. And to be empathetic to that I can empathize with the hurt and how you’re feeling and not validate how you acted. And I think that is important to be able to do. And I would also say to get on their level, like physically, like, if they’re sitting you sit, if they’re standing, you stand like not. It’s a power position, if they’re sitting and you’re standing and talking to them. So I would get where they are physically and have that conversation. So it feels back and forth.

Brian Lawson:  11:46

Well, I think that’s always true, right? That’s always a good posture to take. And, you know, like when you’re working with, with a child who’s seven, like, I’m gonna get down, and I’m going to be right at eye level with them if I can, because that’s meaningful. that’s meaningful. Yeah. So the listening part is really important and listening well. And I liked that you add listening without also like, for you what words you use for basically not validating that their response was okay. Like, you’re not saying that that was an okay response. But you’re gonna listen to them. And so where’d that come from? Like, what happened? Tell me how you got to that point, you know, what’s hurting you the most, or what makes you the most angry.

Kirsten Knox:  12:21

I guess, I think children and teenagers, they come with you, whatever they’ve already experienced that day, right? They don’t come to you on if it’s evening or even morning with a clean slate. They’ve picked up whatever they have experienced that day. And so some of that really could just have nothing to do with what was happening. That was just the last straw, right? So to be curious, and ask those questions have to be able to say another thing I oftentimes ask after we process what’s happened, I want to help them differentiate between, it’s okay to be angry, it’s not okay to throw a ball at someone like both are true.

But also, the thing that I’ve learned that’s been helpful is to be able to say at the end, what do you need from me? How can I help you? And I think that’s important in some students, children, we’ve created different things. So when you get angry, what do you need to do, and that can be looked different than the next kid or the next student. So creating something like that allows them to really address their individual needs, and for them to feel empowered, because they’re then creating the solution being a part of the solution process, like, what do I need to do when I feel this way?

Brian Lawson:  13:27

Yeah. And I think listening to both parties, assuming there’s two sides to this that’s going on and try to listen as neutrally as possible. And then I think, at times, it is appropriate for the status drama between two people, for the two people to meet with you, and maybe another leader, maybe their small group leader or something, to talk through it, and to guide the conversation in a healthy way, where they’re not lashing out at the other person. They’re saying, your help, you’re teaching them how to say, like, I’m feeling this way, when this happens, then, you know, you’re a terrible person. You did that. Yeah, you know.

So like, if you can sit down and have them have a healthy conversation with one another. And I say I emphasize healthy, because I have also seen this done poorly, where the person is essentially attacking the other and being a bully to the other. And then the other person walks out just now destroyed even more like that’s not healthy. So you as a leader have to go into the conversation, ready to place the boundaries and to stop it if it turns negative immediately. Not to wait.

Kirsten Knox:  14:32

I yeah, I would say if it gets bad, right, you’re like, we thought we set this up? Well, it’s not. I think it’s okay to stop it. Right. And to stop the conversation. Say, obviously, we need a little bit more time before each of us is ready to engage in this conversation. And I’ll just shut that down. Like I’ve just been done. You know, just because you started doesn’t mean you have to finish that conversation is to be able to exit it.

Brian Lawson:  14:53

Yeah. And there’ll be maybe times that that conversation just isn’t appropriate. That just isn’t good to have. It’s not healthy for the people and that may be So and maybe you tried to help them, create some space between them and allow them to process what has happened as well. So there is times for that. And then, you know, at some point time, maybe you’ve evolved the parents, if it’s gotten to a certain level, the parents need to know what’s going on, too.

Kirsten Knox:  15:14

So my dad always used to tell us, we had to fight fair, I hated that when he said, that was just an eye language, right? You can’t just blame. You can’t blame your brother for everything. I’m like, Well, maybe that’s fair. He’s like you, but I statements, you have to fight fair.

Brian Lawson:  15:30

Yeah. So I also think this also highlights why it’s important to call parents or like, talk to parents about positive things, too. So like, ahead of time, hopefully, you’ve already like called a parent to brag on their kid or say, hey, guess what your kid did. This was just so great. So that way, when you call about something that’s not so positive, you already have somewhat of a relationship with them. They don’t think that you’re just this person who’s looking for all the bad things in their kid or something. Right. So hopefully, you’ve done some of that ahead of time. So that brings me to let’s go to, are there ways we can minimize trauma or reduce its impact ahead of time? before it occurs?

Kirsten Knox:  16:04

Yeah, I would say one of the important things is to set the expectation, like, how are we going to be when we are here, and that that is clear for all ages, that they understand, here’s who we’re going to be when we are here, kids and students, when they know the expectation oftentimes lean into the expectation. So oftentimes, when we’ve had behavior that is different than the first question, I asked myself, Si, have I done a good job? And is that clear, right, of being able to say, here’s the expectation, and being able to do that, I think that is part of the first step.

Brian Lawson:  16:37

Yeah, the question that comes to my mind, then, too, that I’ve seen where I’ve seen people get this wrong, is how do you then communicate who we’re going to be? And what I mean by how do we get this wrong, there’s one church I know of, in particular, who they have a giant wall, when you walk up the steps into the room. And it’s like a hallway before you get to them at a big wall. And instead of making that wall, like images of young people having a great time or, you know, positive, they painted on the wall letter painting of like the nose of the floor, no, this no that no this, like, that was a terrible way to communicate that.

And clearly the person who made the decision had no, and it wasn’t the youth person that made that decision, they had no understanding of how to work with young people. And they had no understanding of how to communicate a positive message versus a negative message. So that’s not a way to do that. So like communicating the positive of what we’re going to be, you know, these are like the core values that you live into, you’re going to communicate that to your leaders, communicate that to your student leaders, you’re gonna communicate that inmate statements the way that you make maybe in from stage or in front of people, or during small group, like, you know, hey, we’re gonna go to small group. And we’re going to listen deeply to one another, because every person in our group has something to offer, and we’re excited to hear from them. So when you go, let’s all listen really well to each other and come back and share one thing from your group that your group got out of it. Right. So that is a positive way of saying we’re gonna listen to each other.

Kirsten Knox:  18:02

The other part that you did, which is helpful is then in that you communicated the Why? Why does that have value? Right? Because I’ll lean into that if I understand and particularly students and children understand the why, like, why is that helpful? I want to do I want people to listen to me, so I want to listen to others. So I think both of that, give your how we’re going to be positive. And then why, like, why does it matter?

Brian Lawson:  18:27

Yeah, yep. We’re about out of time. Any last thoughts Kristen? Before we wrap this one up.

Kirsten Knox:  18:32

My last one would be I would nip it in the bud quick. Like I think sometimes we let it prolong too long, because we’re unsure of how to handle it. Or if it’s worth being handled, like do I need to step in? And I would say it gets harder the longer it goes. So if there is drama, or if there’s disruptive behavior, to have conversations with them quickly.

Brian Lawson:  18:53

Yeah. Yeah. And the only thing I’d say is, it’s not a terrible idea to put it in writing. Yeah, like I love handbooks in ministries, not because you need to have a handbook to be formal and everything. But it lays out expectations upfront as to give you something to handle parents and families that says, hey, we take ourselves seriously here. And so this is who we’re going to be. So I love it in writing, to if you can do that ahead of time. So, friends, if drama is in your ministry, I promise you it’s also in ours, as well, and everybody around us, and so we have to choose how we’re going to respond to that.

And so there’s some choice in the post response, but there’s also maybe some proactive things we can do ahead of time to help minimize the trauma. So if you have a young person in your family who’s in drama, the next time they get in your in your car after drama, practice, make sure you ask them. If they are feeling dramatic today. I’m sure they’ll appreciate that. They will.

All right, friends, that’s all we got for you. Until next time, I hope we helped you make sense of this thing we call ministry.