Tag Archives: childrens ministry

Five-Minute Mentoring: On Transparency And Oversharing |Season 4: Episode 6

transparency and oversharing on this episode of the five minute mentorinng
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The Making Sense of Ministry podcast is on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

In this episode of Five-Minute Mentoring, we explore the concept of transparency in ministry, the danger of oversharing, and why these are important concepts to apply to your leadership and ministry.

Resources Mentioned
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Kirsten on Facebook, Instagram, or Linkedin.

Show Transcript

Intro:  00:00

Youth Ministry Institute original podcast

Brian Lawson:  00:08

Welcome to the Making Sense Ministry Podcast. The podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry transform lives and impact generations. I’m Brian Lawson here with a special episode.

You know, for nearly 20 years, we’ve been coaching and training individuals and youth and now children’s ministry. And so we’ve decided to share some of that knowledge with you, some of the knowledge that our coaches share with our clients. Between the releases of our regular episodes, we will be sharing what we are calling five minute mentoring episodes. And so today, I’m here with you for our very first five minute mentoring. So welcome, and I’m glad you’re here.

Brian Lawson:  00:46

In this episode, we’re going to talk about transparency in ministry. But not just transparency of the ministry, which is important, especially if you want parents and those in the community to believe in and trust you and your leaders. I’m talking about transparency as a leader. Yeah, you the leader, we’re putting you on the hot seat.

I wonder, do you find it difficult to be transparent with those in your ministry. For some of us, this comes easy, maybe even too easy. There are those of us who fall into the oversharing trap. We share anything with anyone, which in some ways is not bad. But in the wrong context, it can be detrimental to you as a leader, it can derail the ministry, and potentially cause damage to young people and their families.

Brian Lawson:  01:38

So let’s talk first about oversharing.

Oversharing can look like an attempt to gain sympathy. You’re tired, perhaps overworked, maybe your Tesla doesn’t drive itself well enough yet, no matter what it is sharing to gain sympathy becomes a selfish act. There are spaces and places you needed to share these things, perhaps with a friend or a counselor, a mentor, coach, but not with the young people you serve, not at least in an attempt to gain sympathy. And we got to be honest with ourselves about this one, we have to really look inward and say, Are we doing this to gain sympathy.

Brian Lawson:  02:17

The second form that oversharing can look like is sharing with young people without regard to their physical, emotional, social, intellectual and spiritual development. We probably don’t need to share our struggles on getting a mortgage, or dealing with health insurance companies to a sixth grader. It is just not going to connect. And there are absolutely some of areas of our lives that we need to use great caution and wisdom when we share. Failing to recognize the age and developmentally appropriateness of your sharing can and will lead to upset parents, you better expect some phone calls.

Brian Lawson:  02:56

The last one I’m going to talk about today on oversharing is one that I’ve heard said before that you, “still own the story.” What that means is you’re going through a personal crisis, you’re right in the middle of it, perhaps you can’t share without breaking down.

So here are some thoughts to ponder. Are you at a place where you can share coherently? Have you had time to reflect on God’s movement in those spaces? Can you identify your successes or failures in the challenging season? You see when we are still in the middle of a painful situation, are sharing with young people like likely won’t achieve what we had hoped? Yes, you will gain sympathy, perhaps even some relationship equity. But it will not be healthy for the young person spiritual development.

Yeah, we can still ask for prayers and lean on those around us. But being careful not to overshare when we’re right in the middle of something is very important. We need to think carefully about whether we are an oversharer or not. If you are not sure if you’re an overshare. Ask those around you find somebody you trust that can be they’ll be brutally honest with you. And maybe they’ll tell you if you’re an overshare.

Brian Lawson:  04:15

But now in this episode, we’re really focusing on transparency, and healthy transparency is important. At the Youth Ministry Institute, we believe that is critical that we are transparent as leaders. Transparency will help us gain trust with those that we serve. And this trust will be an important tool to have as we seek to help young people follow Jesus. On some level, when we talk about transparency, what we’re really talking about is authenticity. Are you authentic with the young people and families in your ministry.

One definition I read recently on authenticity says that it’s being brave enough to be yourself and genuine enough to live according to your values. As youth and children’s ministers it will be important that You are authentic and sharing appropriate portions of your life. Your volunteers need to see that your family is real, or your home isn’t always perfectly clean. You young people need to hear about times that you have wrestled with your faith. They need to know that you’ve had moments of doubt. The people in the ministry you serve, need to know that you are not a pious robot who gets their faith right every moment of every day. They need to see the great moments and the challenging ones.

Brian Lawson:  05:32

Being authentic and transparent as a leader in age appropriate ways will help you gain trust. Trust in relationships, trust within your team of volunteers or student leaders. Trust within the staff of your church, and trust with families. This trust will help you as you seek to move people forward in their faith. So as you serve in ministry, may ask yourself, what of my life can I share today with those around me, not for sympathy, or to gain something for myself, but in a way that is helpful to others. If you want to make a significant impact in the lives of young people, you need to be a transparent and authentic leader. You need to be the one that shares their life appropriately so that people you serve can see that faith can actually be lived out in a normal person’s life.

Brian Lawson:  06:25

Friends, that’s all I’ve got for you today in this five minute mentoring episode. As always, I hope we’ve helped you make sense of this thing we call ministry.

Outro:  06:36

To learn more, how we might guide you towards success and youth or children’s ministries, head over to yminstitute.com

Fall Ministry, Pumpkin Spice, And Supporting Volunteers | Season 4: Episode 1

Season 4: Episode 1 of the Making Sense of Ministry Podcast
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You can find the Making Sense of Ministry podcast on all major platforms, including Spotify, Apple Podcast, and Audible.

In this episode, Brian and Kirsten share some of their hopes for ministry this fall, reflect on interesting summer stories, and discuss one BIG way you should support your volunteers.

Resources Mentioned
Youth & Children’s Ministry Job Board
Youth and Children’s Ministry Certifications
Youth or Children’s Ministry Coaching

Join Our Facebook Group
Subscribe To Content Filled Emails

Find the Youth Ministry Institute on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Brian on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Linkedin.
Find Kirsten on Facebook, Instagram, or Linkedin.

Unknown: 0:00

Youth Ministry Institute original podcast

Brian Lawson: 0:08

Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Making Sense of ministry podcast. This is the podcast designed to help you lead well and your ministry transform lives and impact generations. I’m Brian Lawson back with Kirsten Knox and we’re here to talk about fall ministry. Kirsten we’re launching in the fall and what we’re recording this some people have already started back to school, some people will start back in a week or two. okay, Kirsten, what do you love about fall?

Kirsten Knox: 0:36

Routine. I love routine. I love the summer, but I’ll tell you, when the fall hit, and kids start going back to school, and I was like, Ah, my normal routine. It was life giving to me.

Brian Lawson: 0:48

Ah I’m ready for pumpkin spice.

Kirsten Knox: 0:51

Ah, there you go. Okay,

Brian Lawson: 0:53

yeah, I’m not burned out yet. You know, it’s been a rave for what, like 10 years now. 15 years? And I’m still not burned out. That’s right.

Kirsten Knox: 1:01

Yes. Because recently at the coffee places, you can get it now in my area. So I don’t know about yours.

Brian Lawson: 1:08

So we just got a whole lot of people who love us and will love me. I don’t know about you, or a whole, a whole lot of people who have now just decided to write me off.

Kirsten Knox: 1:16

They’re questioning your judgment right now.

Brian Lawson: 1:24

So any interesting stories or things happened to you this summer, in ministry?

Kirsten Knox: 1:30

I was trying the I went on a student retreat with our students. And here Okay, so I have been doing ministry in Florida for over 20 years on the coast. By and large, I think all the places I’ve been on the coasts, and I have successfully not done water trips, like, not been beach trips, like I don’t do beach trips as a youth ministry until this church that I work at. They love water, and it’s small. It’s a smaller group. I’ve worked in larger churches, so in larger groups, so I feel like there’s a little bit of a difference, but I’m like, I’ve successfully avoided this unless it’s like a waterpark where there’s lifeguards, because then I feel better about this. And then our retreat we went on has a river with kayaks and canoes right next to our cabin. And then we recently did a boating trip to kick off the new year with our team by our new sixth graders. And I’m like, so in the summer, I have done these, and it just makes me so nervous. I I saw pictures. And I was like, man, they’re like on boats on the ocean. Yes. This is what I say they push pushes my low tolerance for risk. And probably good for like, every time I have to judge is that you know, because I would like to say no to things. Yeah. Because I don’t want there to be any risk. But that’s not fun. And students need risk. And so I’m like, yeah, one of the pastors here said to me, Kirsten, how did you avoid for 20 plus years not doing it? I’m like, because I’m smart. Yes. It can be done. It can be done. That’s right. We have a little different culture here. So you know, you live into the culture. And it’s but yeah, one of the

Brian Lawson: 3:09

One of the things that I got to experience this summer was as a part of the youth ministry Institute, we we work with Episcopal churches here in Central Florida. And so one of the things we do is help them put on and host a mission week. And while we were there, a student who is upper High School, this point in time looks so familiar to me. And I was like, I know, I know this kid from somewhere. Where do I know this boy? And I couldn’t pin it. And then he comes up to me and goes, Brian, and I’m like, yes. No, you okay? You know, yes, I had a nametag on but it was clear he was not reading. And I was thinking…Oh, no. Oh, no. How do I know this boy. And then he goes, anything goes, Hey, you gonna buy us some drinks. And it clicked like, I knew this kid when he was in sixth grade. him in this his friend, we had a snack bar at the time where I was at, and he would always say, hey, come buy some drinks. And in my head, I never knew if he meant like, buy us drinks at the snack bar, or let’s go out for like an adult beverage drink. I never really knew what he meant. But, but so that was an unique experience to catch back up with him. Because they after I left, they moved over to the Episcopal Church in area. And so it was neat to catch up with him. And that was a weird experience to suddenly hear buy us some drinks again.

Kirsten Knox: 4:36

In a different environment. Right. You’re like I didn’t expect that here.

Brian Lawson: 4:39

Yeah, so I’m hoping he met snack bar drinks, not adult. Although by this point time, he might mean adult beverages. I don’t really know.

Kirsten Knox: 4:48

Either way, I’m gonna try to give you the same answer here. That’s right. That’s right.

Brian Lawson: 4:53

So yeah, it was good. It was a good time. And so I hope our listeners had a great summer and had some cool experiences and probably some scary experiences and everything in between but but now we’re kind of we’ve shifted to fall right or shifted to fall, which you said love the routine.

Kirsten Knox: 5:08

Love the routine and the fall decorations. You said, I wasn’t thinking that when you said Fall, I was thinking more ministry just not in general. But like, all decorations I have. I have I’m waiting till September 1. This is my deadline. This is my goal. Yeah, I know you’re earlier than that. And I have to negotiate that start date with my husband, so.

Brian Lawson: 5:31

Oh, so Yeah, mine stuff still in the attic, though? I haven’t got it down yet. So I gotta get it down today or tomorrow that hopefully summed up this weekend. And, yeah, so I was, as we were kind of thinking about this episode here. And we were sort of thinking about, like, what, what are some of the things people want? Start thinking about this time of year? Right. And, and we think we’re thinking thatwe all sort of have hopes for the fall, like we want the fall to look like something, we want it to be meaningful. And for me, I know this won’t sit well with people whether snow, but for me, Fall means August through December. But I know people in the North think, oh, that’s winter. But so that’s semester, if you will, that that fall semester, so what is it? What is it we hope for right? And then I’m wondering if there’s some things that we can do? Or think about that can help us land what we where we hope to be? So for you and I wonder what are some things that we hope we would see in student ministry or kids ministry, children’s ministry, whatever we were leading? What would some of those things be that we would? We would hope for?

Kirsten Knox: 6:48

Yeah, I was thinking about that. I think what, what is unique about falls, there’s an energy to fall typically, that’s also in the rhythm of youth and children’s ministry, your high attendance of the year, like that’s when people right, we’re on this restart, let’s restart. And so one of the things that I oftentimes hope for, and I think what we hope for is that we are able to leverage that momentum, like it’s just naturally there. So how do I take advantage of that and leverage that? Not just for the fall, which I want to for the fall? But also can I leverage that for a year? And what is coming? So that is one of the first things I think about? Yeah, yeah, I, you know,

Brian Lawson: 7:28

I often think about, really two perspectives and ministry. For me, there was a time where I did not meet much in the summer with the ministries I was leading. We just people were out of town, we had a few major things, but that was it. We didn’t do a whole lot of meeting. So when it was like that fall for me, was especially early on, was about how do I redevelop these relationships among the people in ministry? Like how what can I do to create an environment that they reengage with one another like they had before? So there’s that that perspective and the other perspective that I would have when I when the ministry I was leading, was active all summer long, was similar in some ways, but slightly different. It was how do I how do I develop upon or build upon those relationships that were formed over the summer? So either way, it was based around relationships. And that was really important for this time of year. I think it’s even more important this time of year than other times a year. But one was how do I foster environments that make it possible for people to reengage with one another? And the other one is, how do I how do I continue that momentum? Right? How do I encourage that and also know that people are going to come in to the ministry who were not there all summer? They had no idea what we did. So they missed all that happened. Yeah, in the summer.

Kirsten Knox: 8:51

Yeah. And I think that similar is culture, setting the culture because again, it’s that restart, so that relationships and that culture, what do we want? I think about what do we want to develop as this culture? And because there’s new people, as you’ve got to figure out, how am I helping them feel like they’re a part of it, what I don’t want them to do is to like they’re on the outside looking in, because they didn’t have some of those summer experiences, or they’re new. So how to how do we create a culture of belonging for people who have had those and not feel like you know, they’re the those core kids that have been a part of those experience and are excited about what they experienced over the summer, but also those who you’re new sixth graders? Yeah, you’re the people who have joined for the first time. How do you think by the time comes April in May? For me, oftentimes, I was like, well, we’ve gotten a little lacks on some things. Maybe we created some bad habits. The fall is starting to be like, okay, we can restart. Who do we want to be? What does that environment we want to foster? And how do we do that? Yeah. So

Brian Lawson: 9:48

There’s kind of two things I want to ask you a question that maybe we could hit on a little bit this what to what you’re saying. But before that, I wonder if how we think about our language and the way we use our language makes a big difference on whether or not somebody who wasn’t there all summer feels included or not. And, you know, I was just sitting here thinking about like, when we talk about things that happened in the summer, if we’re in front of the group sharing, or if people are talking about it, like, one small example, we sit, we’re sitting in a small group or something, or sitting a Sunday school class with the children and asking them recall, you know, what was your favorite thing you did this summer, and they maybe talk about summer camp. And they share a little, you know, say I love this, they’re not going to share it in a way that a new person would understand. Yeah, you’re going to simply share the thing that they love. So for you, as a leader, I think this is probably a good place to think about our language and think about how we communicate and then say, I know there’s people in this environment that weren’t there at summer camp. I don’t want them to feel like outsider, or excluded. So I’m going to follow up that young person that child’s saying, The favorite thing they loved, and just share briefly with the group. Yeah, we went to summer camp, and we did these things. And that’s, that’s what they’re talking about. And maybe maybe sometime, you could join us. Something that just sort of gives a full picture as to what it is. I don’t know if there’s anything you did or said Pearson specifically like that. But But I just think, you know, thinking through our language in that moment, is a good way to not exclude the people who weren’t there last summer?

Kirsten Knox: 11:20

Well, yes, and framing it, which is what you speak to being able so that it builds excitement for what could come and like what they could be a part of, versus like feeling left out. Like, I think that’s important. And I think if we’re not intentional about that, it’s easy to get sucked into the conversation, because there’s excitement there. And we’re glad about what happened, but being able to frame that. And I think then pulling in those people into conversation. Like, that would be my other is when someone is sharing about all the great, you know, something that we did, then I try to enlink Turn it to someone who maybe wasn’t a part of that and ask them to share about their summer like, what did you do? That was fun? What just so that they have something to share? And to speak to?

Brian Lawson: 12:01

Yeah, absolutely. So the thing I wanted to backtrack on and ask the question is, you know, you and I both have kind of talked about building those relationships or, or rebuilding, you know, so you’re either building upon relationships that were developed over the summer, or you’re rebuilding entirely and trying to help people reconnect, which, in truth at these machines, we tell people every single week, you’re rebuilding relationships, I mean, essentially, that’s what you’re doing. But what are some ways that you some things you’ve done, or that a person could do to help create space for those relationships to redevelop. For me, I think this is where I stay away from on stage games. During this time. I know that people love them, and they have their place, and they can be great and buy onstage games, I mean, the ones where you’re on a stage, and there’s a screen behind you. And it’s, you know, one or two people in the game, or it’s by looking at the screen, right, something like that. I stay away from those right now, that’s not helpful to rebuild relationships. I need something that gets them interacting and moving.

Kirsten Knox: 13:11

So yes, yeah. And I think for me, the fall was always, I spent a little bit more a longer time in the Kinect, in creating space through games, because I’m like, if you’re new here, it’s hard to sit in a circle and just have a conversation. So I recognize that if I can help you bond in that game time, then it’s tees up our small group time. But if someone was to look at our schedule, we would always spend more time in that area for the first month or two. And then it shifted in titling. I mean, I think our students are like, Hey, we’re just having fun, more time to hang out where I’m like, Yes, purposefully, because they want to set that up. So that was, I would increase the time we spent, and also look at different types of games. So I have, you have different types of students that will enjoy different games and connect in different ways. So creating a variety, I think is also important, and sometimes in the same night. So if I lengthen that time a little bit, I might play two, versus oftentimes we have played one for a longer time, that had variety, so that different students could connect in different ways. And different people could be for a better word, the hero of the game, right? The winners because if not, you have the same thing, kids that tend to win a lot. So I want to create a different game that will highlight other people’s strengths, so they can win. So that was the variety and being intentional about that.

Brian Lawson: 14:34

Yeah, one of the one of my favorite. This is not a game. This is the game before the game. Right? This is the pre setup, this was the best for us. I would just tell people to find somebody who has a different shoe than you and they have to go find one other person or you know where you could do a group of two or three people. Three people, and they would all group up or those two people get together. And then I would ask them a question to share with one another Tell, tell tell somebody the worst food experience you’ve ever had, tell that person worst food experience you’ve had. And they would share with one another. And they would tell each other the names, then I’d give them like, you know, two or three minutes to chat, however long I felt like was necessary. And then I would say, Okay, now find somebody who is taller than you, or shorter than you. And, you know, like, I would just give random things. And I would, the more random, the better. And the rule was always you could not go to somebody you’ve already been to. And I would have the adult leaders going around the room and kind of just keep an eye on making sure there’s nobody trying to be sly, which we all know, that never happens, right? No action is introverts trying to find the same person over and over. Yes, but this was all the pregame, this, you know, just I would do that for 10 or 15 minutes, maybe more. And what actually happens is it helps you develop your group, so you don’t have to divide people up because they’ve naturally divided themselves up. And it also makes them interact with one another, hear each other’s names hear about each other. It humanizes the other person to them, you know, so. So that was always so effective for us. So that’s a great thing to do before your game, like if you want to think through about that connection there.

Kirsten Knox: 16:18

So and something to avoid is i is particularly beginning of the year I think, is saying, Alright, gather with two or three people or find two other people or find three other having them self select their groups, because I think at this time, then that really highlights those who feel disconnected. I’m not a big fan of that most of the time. So rarely will I even do that. But particularly I think when you’re trying to help everyone feel like they have a place to belong, because it highlights those who don’t know who to just connect with. Yeah, it’s very obvious not only to them, but this is a group. Yeah, self select is terrible. They just choose the same people all the time. And that just, you know, creates creates students or children who are just left out, and it’s not good. That’s why if you can find a way to naturally break it up or something, then it’s way better. Way better. Yes. So Okay, what else? Are we thinking about the fall? I wonder if we want to go? Well, if you think about your Fulkerson, what’s one thing or two things? I want my adults to feel confident and what their roles. And really that oftentimes means that I’ve set them up to succeed. And that’s an attentional space. I feel like if I there’s so much that goes on in the fall, that being intentional about that, I think is highly important. And also helping them see how to create space for relationships and conversation in the unplanned time. So I that’s probably the other piece is being able for them to feel confident and find out what ways what part of their world are they not feel confident in? And being able to have conversation and equip them that and affirm them? I have one adult who is so good at building relationships, and she doesn’t always see that because it’s just natural to her. So I’m like you do this so well. She’s like, really? I don’t know. And I’m like, yes. Yeah. So affirming them, but also trying to figure out where did they not feel a secure to give them tools to do that. But really, how much time have I spent preparing them for the new year? Versus just preparing the program and the Ministry for the new year.

Brian Lawson: 18:26

Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s actually interesting said there’s a volunteer, volunteer in a kid’s ministry where she serves. And they had recently had their first week back. And she has fourth and fifth grade children. And they’re, they just, the behavior is just insane. In the room, they just, they’re just don’t listen at all. And so I was talking through with her What are some ways that she could address this. And the hard part is the hardest part of all of it is that the actual children’s ministry director does not lay the groundwork for her to be successful. Like that’s the real problem. The core of the problem is that the children’s director does not have expectations laid out does not communicate with parents about those expectations, if there’s issues she doesn’t follow through with the parents like she needs to. And so the kids think they can just run over any of the volunteers there. And that’s a problem. That’s a problem. Yeah, I even think that maybe it’s the beginning of the years, particularly in that kind of setting where you know, you’re going to have a group, that’s a problem. It’s okay to set out the expectations right away and to let the parents know, hey, here’s how we’re going to handle this. We’re going to encourage positive behavior. But when we have issues, we’re going to handle it this way. And then we’re going to let you know.

Kirsten Knox: 19:53

You know, it adds clarity. Everyone loves clarity. Yeah, there’s a lot of confusion. And I think for us, because we’ve been in it or running it, we feel like it’s clear. It’s great. I think a great question is to ask your new parents and that what, when you are in this transition, what was unclear to you? Where was their confusion? Yeah, we would learn a lot about ministry and our ministry, right, if we would just simply ask that question. But I think that, and I think that’s key to setting the culture of being able to say, here’s who we are, right? You get to speak into your core values into that, create a slide that says those, here’s our, you know, here’s who we are, here’s how we’re going to be together. Because I think students, they want to know the boundaries. And then they will live up oftentimes to what we expect. So if we don’t give them our expectations, they’re going to just do whatever. So that’s, I think, part of that restart. But being able to do that for your adults, I think that’s also key in retention. If not,

Brian Lawson: 20:54

Let me just tell you this, this volunteer has about done and it was, like, you know, the very beginning the year now, she has volunteered for several years. And this is not a new problem, but it’s gotten progressively worse. And this is I mean, this is really a part where that children’s director needs to step in, and take some leadership. Now I tried to give that volunteer some tools, you know, but those tools can only go so far, if the culture is not there in the ministry as a whole.

Kirsten Knox: 21:19

Yeah, I think a great question to ask your leaders, whether they’re first time or they believed for a while is what do you need for me to feel confident in your role here? Yeah, like so that you can say, hey, here’s what I need to provide to set you up for success? Or where do you feel like, we’re not doing that for you? Right, I think you got it’s a it’s a risky question, because you got to be willing to hear what they have to say. But if not, I think, yeah, life is hard. Life is complicated. Why would I volunteer somewhere that’s just adding that to my life? Like, I don’t need that. Right? So if I’m that volunteer, I’m like, soon, I’m just gonna peace out. Because I mean, I’m gonna probably hang for a while because I love students, and I believe in this or children, right. But at some point, I’m like, Oh, this ain’t worth this headache. And I don’t want my adults to feel that way. Right. Like you’re like, and I’m sure times they have. So how do you? Right? Yeah, I think that’s key, asking them questions I would ask questions, is important in that space?

Brian Lawson: 22:17

Yeah, I think it’s really important that we, that we think about what’s going to help us retain the volunteers. That’s so critical. Hey, friends, are you currently serving in a church as a youth or children’s minister, perhaps a family minister, and you want to grow in your leadership, gain some new skills and build confidence? We at the youth ministry Institute offer a certification program both for youth and children’s ministers. And this is designed to help those of you who are already serving to accelerate both your leadership skills and your understanding of ministry. It’s a cohort based program that starts twice a year. And so we are currently recruiting new students to join the next cohort. So if you’re interested, reach out to us at yminstitute.com And now back to the podcast episode. But then, as I think about that, there was another thing I was thinking too, is we talked about community and sort of belonging and how do we make people feel a part of it and rebuild those relationships, I actually want the fall to also be about the people who are not in the ministry. And, and I think sometimes we people land this way, naturally, they think of as a time for evangelism or reaching out or whatever. Which is true. But for me, I, I want our leaders to realize to this, that our ministry is more than just the kids or students that are present. But it’s also the people who are not present who haven’t been in a while, who they haven’t seen since last year. And it’s also the people in the schools and, and the community. And so, for me, like I want, I want us to think about that in the fall, I want us to think about what we design or the or the outreaches we do, or the language we use, or the cards that we send out to people like all of that I want it to reflect the people who aren’t there as much as the people who are there.

Kirsten Knox: 24:13

How did you help your leaders get that mindset? Or have that perspective? Did you do things that help them to see that?

Brian Lawson: 24:21

Yes, and yes, in some ways, like, I tried to design it into the programming pieces. So we had what we called circle games, which were later in the fall. And a big chunk of that was trying to engage new people. The other was at our leader meetings, we would talk about people we hadn’t seen in a while, we’d kind of go through the list and and as Hey, who’s going to follow up with who like, let’s check in with these people and and just see how they are just to show care. So we would do that. But we also would divide up our mission based off different parts of the year. And one of one of our part of our mission statement was that reach component and so we would spend the fall focusing a lot of times on that. And then for us after January was really focused on the discipleship, the Grow part of our of our mission statement. So, yeah, in our training, trainings, meetings or regular meetings, we would talk about that every time. But then we would also try to build it into what we were doing. And talk about it with our students, leaders a lot or even, even in kids ministry, fourth and fifth grade. I think you could talk about this a lot with them like, Hey, who’s not here, who haven’t we seen in a while. You know, Could you could you have one of those kids right? Cards? Somebody hasn’t been there in a bit. I mean, how cool would that be?

Kirsten Knox: 25:37

Yes. I had a student once they like, Where? Where is so and so I haven’t seen them? And I’m like, I don’t know. Do you want to reach out to them? Yeah, I was like, because the expectation was that I would do that. Right, which I will and do, but I’m like both of us. Good. Right? Like it’s just not of helping them see if I can I can be a part of this solution, and be a part of reaching out, not just the adults and not just Kirsten.

Brian Lawson: 26:03

Like what you mean, this is a ministry that kids can actually participate in? Yes, you can be a part of it. Yes. Isn’t this exciting? You know, another way you could do that is like when you got into your classrooms or small groups, whatever your setting look like would be to if the kids had phones, text all the people who’s not there, right, like who’s normally there is not there. So you know, encourage your leaders to hey, you know, Samantha is not here. Let’s let’s texter everybody texts all at once. And let’s just say how much we love her miss her. And hope she’s doing well, you know, something like that. So then their phone blows up with all these messages.

Kirsten Knox: 26:40

Yeah, great way active ways to have them be a part of that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So there’s so much more we could talk about with the fall. Is there any last thing that you want to hit? Or do you kind of feel like we sort of gave a good baseline? I think we did a good baseline. And I wonder, Brian, what is? What do you least look forward to in the fall? What’s the challenge or hard thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have a I have a very specific one to the context where I was last.

Brian Lawson: 27:12

I hated parking lot fundraisers. So we were in an area that had festivals. And we had prime parking several lots, we had three lots around our campus. And we as much as I hate it, it was a great fundraiser. I mean, we produce 1000s and 1000s of dollars in over a weekend. I think by the time I left is like 15 to $20,000 we’d raise in the weekend. I mean, it was insane. But it was so, so much work. And I was out in the sun all day. And I’m like, I’d go home like I’m just I’m done. I’m just beat. And then you’d have church Sunday morning, when you go to that just exhausted, I hated that. He’s. So that’s very specific to my context. But in general, if I was to think like, what was the thing as a whole? I think the hardest part for me, was trying to be creative again. And what I mean by that is, you know, after you do it for so many years that like, Okay, I got to come up with something new again, or we have to rethink this retreat again, you know, and that always got a little tiring, I think. So I would lean heavy on students and other people to contribute to that. It took me a little while to learn to do that. But, but early on, when I wouldn’t learn to do that. That was That was exhausting.

Kirsten Knox: 28:29

Yes. And a lot of pressure. Right? It feels like you’re just carrying versus learning how to carry that together. Yeah.

Brian Lawson: 28:37

What about what about you like what was your least favorite?

Kirsten Knox: 28:40

I knew you were gonna ask me that question next. And I was like, I I don’t know I can come up with an I feel like I dislike because like a parking lot fundraiser. Yes. But for us, in my that was bring. Spring is always harder for me than fall. Okay. So I was like, what don’t I dislike about but I would affirm the Create you like trying to create it new and make it fresh. And I too have learned to build ideas, people around me and those creative people. For us. It’s one of our pastors and like, I was like, What are we gonna do? And like, she just comes up, she’s like, boop, boop, boop, boop boop of them. And I’m like, Okay, well, let’s harness which ones I like. I love this and then being able to do it. So I mean, I would affirm that but I was trying to I don’t know if I had a specific I know, I’m the one that asked the question, but that’s okay.

Brian Lawson: 29:33

Perhaps we’ve also like, put our toe into something that should be a future episode, which is about the power of brainstorming and how do we do that well, with our teams, you know, pull that together, but but that will be another episode. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, so friends, we hope you enjoy your pumpkin spice whatever it is pumpkin spice, you know, drinks or pumpkin spice cough drops. I don’t know what it is. But, you know, we hope you enjoy it and your fall decorations and most of all, we hope We’ve helped you make sense of this thing we call ministry

Unknown: 30:04

To learn more how we might guide you towards success in youth or children’s ministries head over to yminstitute.com

Four Strategic Decisions For Summer Ministry

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Ministry in the summer can fly by. Summer can feel like a whirlwind from ending the school year, celebrating graduations, jumping into camps or mission trips, assisting VBS, and family vacations. And before we know it, we’ve lost a golden opportunity. So I wonder, have you thought through how you are using summer? I believe each summer, we should choose a few things to focus on as leaders. Here are just a few that you may want to consider implementing in your summer ministry this year.

FOUR STRATEGIC DECISIONS FOR SUMMER MINISTRY

Choose The Small Moments In Summer Ministry

There will be many small moments throughout the summer, and you do not want to miss them. What are small moments? 

Small moments look like walking with a student as you carry game supplies back to the bus, waiting for a ride, or setting up for VBS. These situations create opportunities for you to ask questions and hear a young person’s heart. You can help them feel seen, heard, and acknowledged. These conversations can be a catalyst toward spiritual development and even inspire them to take on a level of leadership like never before.

During the school year, these moments are more challenging to find. But in the summer, there will be many opportunities to connect on an individual level with a young person. 

Create Opportunities For Leadership During Summer Ministry

Want to see young people leading more in your ministry? You do that by giving them opportunities. Notice, I didn’t say you do that by ensuring they will succeed. You give them opportunities to lead in both success and failure.

Summer provides us with the chance to let young people lead games, devotions, snacks, prayer, and more. Why is summer a great place for this? Because ministry that happens in the summer is often smaller and feels less risky. 

Take advantage of the less risky feel of summer and give young people a chance to lead. Walk with them through the planning, execution, and evaluation of how the activity went. Using this time wisely will prepare them to be a leader during the school year.

Support Other Ministries

We all have important things to accomplish during the summer. I understand that. But have you ever considered summer as an opportunity to build credit and relationships with others in the church?

If you’re in youth ministry, summer is an excellent time to volunteer in and support the children’s ministry. Consider this; those children will be teens before you know it. Imagine how much better their transition into the youth ministry will be if they already have a relationship with you.

How about supporting an adult ministry? Consider participating in an adult service project or Sunday School class. This action will help you build credit with the adults – credit that may someday pay off if you need extra support. You may also find new volunteers or individuals who want to fund a portion of your ministry.

And let’s be honest. We’re around young people a lot. Spending time with other adults will help us be more well-rounded people.

Remember Rest & Family

For some of us, the summer is the perfect opportunity to rest. Wait, let me correct that statement. The summer provides us and even calls all of us to rest.

A rested you and a better prepared you. Make sure you schedule blocks of time to nap, read a book that encourages your soul, build a table, or lounge on the beach. Find ways to remind you of the critical fact that we all often forget – you are beloved by God regardless of your work.

And perhaps, most of all, find ways to spend time with your family. Show love and support, and be there for and with them.

Regardless of how long you’ve been in ministry, we must constantly be making large and small decisions. These decisions should be defined in the summer by how we want our relationships to go, what will keep us in ministry longer, and how we can set ourselves up for success in the coming school year. 

Rev. Brian Lawson is the Director of Leadership Development and Client Services for YMI and has served in youth ministry since 2004. He also serves as a pastor in the Florida Conference of the UMC. Brian holds a Master of Ministry with a focus in organizational culture, team-based leadership, change, conflict, and peacemaking from Warner University. In addition to his degrees from Warner, he studied Christian Education at Asbury Theological Seminary. Click the social links below to engage with Brian.

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Episode 01: Kirsten Knox on Understanding Gen Z, Empathy, and Small to Medium Size Church Youth Ministry

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In this episode, Kirsten Knox discusses the traits of Generation Z and their greatest challenges. Kirsten shares why empathy may just be the key for Gen Z and why she believes that small to medium size churches may have an advantage in reaching students today.

Resources Mentioned:

“How To Speak Gen Z” video.

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Here Are The Show Notes:

Ashley (00:01):

Welcome to the making sense of ministry podcast presented to you by the youth ministry Institute, a podcast designed to help you lead well in your ministry, transform lives and impact generations. Here’s your host, Brian Lawson.

Brian Lawson – Host (00:13):

Hey friends and welcome to the making sense of ministry podcast. In fact, welcome to the very first episode of this show. This podcast is a podcast presented to you by the youth ministry Institute, also known as why am I, why am I has been around since 2005 and since that time we’ve helped churches develop their youth ministers, children’s ministers. We’ve helped churches with strategic planning, consulting, coaching, team development and job placements. Part of the reason why we wanted to start this podcast in the first place was we understand what it’s like to serve in ministry. We understand that it can be challenging and confusing and then oftentimes we feel overwhelmed and under-prepared and so our hope is that this podcast will help you to, this podcast will help you lead well in your ministry, help you transform lives, and help you increase your impact on generations.

Brian Lawson – Host (01:07):

Every episode of this podcast will contain an interview with somebody who brings unique perspectives, challenging insights and encouragement. Today’s guest is Kirsten Knox. She is the senior director of ministry partnerships for why am I, she’s a graduate of why am I and has extensive youth ministry experience before she began serving in youth ministry, Kirsten was a trained social worker and she’s also a graduate of Asbury university. She has some great insights for us today regarding generationZ , which is the generation born around 1997 through 2012 this is the generation currently in your children’s ministry, your youth ministry, even your college ministries and maybe one or two outside of our college ministries. This generation faces some unique challenges different than previous and she shares a little bit about those challenges. She shares the role of empathy and reaching this generation and she also shares about why small to medium churches might actually sit in a position of strength when it comes to reaching young people. Today. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy this interview. Kiersten, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So what’s been the driving factor for you serving in ministry and what has kept you in ministry when things got messy or sticky or didn’t make sense?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (02:24):

The driving factor for me is that teenagers matter and that teenagers need to know that Jesus invites them to have a relationship with him, that the creator of the universe knows their name and wants a relationship with them. And so when times have gotten hard, I would say a couple of things. One is remembering that there’s something we’re fighting for something bigger and that we need to be a part of helping teenagers because adolescence is such a hard time. How can we do that with them and help create those spaces, safe spaces for them. But also I would say the community around me because there have definitely been those times when you thought, I think I’m done with this. Like I don’t know if this is really, I’m really making an impact. Am I really, you know, and it was in those moments particularly that’s where my, why am I community came in, is I had friendships that I had made through that, that they walked that journey with me of trying to figure that out. And then so I think that community that had built it really at times when I’ve felt discouraged or not so sure about this speak life to me in those moments and really just journey with.

Brian Lawson – Host (03:32):

Yeah. So community has been important, has played an important role for you, it sounds like. Do you think that the same would be true for your students in your ministry, that community is significant, it plays an important role. Is that something you would agree with and what does that look like?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (03:49):

I would, I mean, I think that that is very important to them and yet it’s an area in which they lack a lot of skills at time, particularly in this generation where a lot of how we communicate is behind screens. Like they have this desire to be in community, to have healthy relationships, but they’re not always real sure of how to obtain those. So it’s intimidating. But I think when you can have developed that community with students, when they talk about trips or they talk about activities, what are really reflecting on is, yes, we did some fun things, but the people I got to do it with and those relationships are very powerful.

Brian Lawson – Host (04:27):
You talked about trips. Have you ever, have you ever taken your students on trip and said, no, you’ve

got to keep your phones at home?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (04:32):

I did. Yeah. At first it was a little shaky. When we first started, when I first started at Pasadena, we had talked about mission trips. And my first year there I was like, I don’t really think we need to take cell phones on mission trips, but that hadn’t been the culture in the past. So we work with a student leadership team and our leadership team to make those decisions. But there was pushback and even, you know, Sony phones appear on the trip. And so removing the phones and holding those so you journey through that. But then once we created a culture of, I mean, I remember like six or seven years in, you know, you get new people who go to the trips, so students are asking about and they’re like, Oh, we do our bring our phones. And the other kids would be like, no, we don’t bring phones.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (05:19):

Like it was like, why would you do that? Where I’m like, yeah, before we fought it. And then it just became a part of the culture. And I think they really appreciated that they were hesitant because there’s some real anxieties and they sometimes would give their passwords to other people to keep their snips, chat. It’s Trent alive, you know, cause they couldn’t, I’m like, seriously. I also think parents is difficult on parents at times, as much as students to be away from their phones, for the parents to be like, they’re not taking their phones. I’m like, no, we would give out all of our leaders phone numbers so that they had all that. I’m like, you can contact us at any time. But that anxiety of not having it, not only is it students have to navigate that, but parents how to navigate that, which I get. Right. But yeah, I think they experienced the freedom students particularly afterwards liked it. And I think even look forward. I mean, they look for the mission trip for multiple reasons, but they also look forward to it because there was this sense of freedom that they didn’t experience any other time.

Brian Lawson – Host (06:21):

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. I mean the next following year, and you after that because look forward to it and it was not, we don’t take our phones. Yeah. And yeah, you’re right. Parents can be fearful of that. I mean, my daughter will be a middle school soon and I’m thinking, Oh, she doesn’t have a phone now, but what I want her to have a phone in the trip I want, do I want to be able to reach her? Right. So there is a fear there for sure. But knowing that you’re accessible to the parents and your leaders are accessible, helps that fear for the parents. Yeah. So gen Z is something you’re passionate

about. And a, and actually a couple of years ago I got, I think it is that last year, Carl from Sunday, Cole released a video that is all about gen Z language and it became really trendy and it was trending actually even outside the youth ministry world.

Brian Lawson – Host (07:08):

And my leaders and I, we used to, we washed it and I didn’t understand any of it and some of them did, but most of them didn’t. So we would just make up words and talk like we were talking to gen Z to each other all the time. The students made fun of us, we made fun of each other. It was a good time. If you haven’t seen the video, we’ll put it in the show notes so you can see the video. What is some things we need to know about gen Z that might help us understand them a little better?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (07:32):

I think some of the most important things is to remember is this culture is different than other cultures. So other generations, when we think about how we have ministered and communicated with other generations, generation Z is different and the battles that they face are different. So studies would tell us that they, the four big significant things that they, they battle would be loneliness, anxiety, depression and suicide. And then when you think about those things, they can shape the way you do ministry and the way you communicate to students because you recognize what they’re facing is different than what we would think of drugs, alcohol, sex studies would say those are on the decrease, but are what is on the increase are those things. And so creating a culture and a community, like we talked about earlier, how important is that community when students, teenagers are facing those kinds of issues?

Brian Lawson – Host (08:25):

Yeah. So when you say they’re facing a different world, what do you think some things are that are contributing to that? Like what, why is it that depression, anxiety and those things, why do you think those things are on the rise? Whereas the traditional things we talked about in the 90s about youth ministries on the decline, what do you think is contributing to that pressure? Pressure from where?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (08:47):

Everywhere. I think they get, I think oftentimes us as adults underestimate the amount of pressure our teenagers have to navigate every day. Oftentimes think of them as like a pressure pot and how they’re getting it from every angle and that changes them and changes how they respond to things. And that creates some of those issues. But I mean if you think about it just with social media, they’re never off, right? Like if there’s always this sense on of I’m on, cause when do they ever just get to turn it off? Whereas when I was a kid, you know, I went to school, I might have felt pressure at school and had to be on my game, but when I went home I didn’t have to be. And now they carry a cell phone with them, with their social media. But that pressure is at school, that pressure is home. It’s all the time. It’s at night when they wake up and check it right. Like it’s, they never are released from that. And then they have the compounding pressure of academics. So we see middle-schoolers dealing with what high schoolers used to deal with and the pressure of I’ve got to take the right classes so I can get in college and I’m a seventh grader. Like that’s a lot of pressure.

Brian Lawson – Host (09:55):

Yeah. I mean I think, I even think that’s coming down into elementary school. I mean some of the fourth or fifth grade teachers are feeling that pressure that’s being put on them, which is then translating to students.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (10:05):

Yeah. I was having a conversation with one of my students on Sunday and her mom and her mom was trying to tell her to limit her AP classes. She’s like, I don’t want you to take any more than three AP classes a semester. Cause she’s also in drama and she does a lot of theater and drama and that takes up a lot of her time. And her mom really sees the value in those things and doesn’t like edgy. And she makes, I think she’s one of those straight A’s students. One of those high performers. You know, I say that a little bit. I’m like, yes, I don’t know that world, but I can pretend that might be like but for her like thinking the student is saying I need to take more AP classes cause I’ve got to get to college and I got to do this and the mom is saying you don’t need to put up all that pressure on yourself. Let’s limit it. What a gift that is to her. Yeah. And I thought that pressure isn’t coming from the parent that’s internal. Right. Like she’s feeling that she’s picking up on that. She’s getting those messages and she’s the one saying that. So it was an interesting conversation where I thought, again, students are on a lot of pressure and I don’t think we always recognize just being at school what a battle that is for them and how much that takes out of them. The academic as well.

Brian Lawson – Host (11:16):

The social. Yeah. So do you think there’s common mistakes that people who work with young people, whether it be youth or children, is there common mistakes that people make that maybe apply pressure more or don’t recognize its impact on them? What are some of those things?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (11:32):

[Inaudible] What have we tend to do? Particularly because we care about them. So it comes from a good place is we minimize how they feel. We minimize the pressure. So when a student shares that with us, we want them to feel better. I don’t want you to feel like this. I want to throw them away to minimize it. And I think that is difficult as well as trying to fix it. I think both of those create more pressure because if I’m trying to minimize that when I’m communicating to that student is you’re just blowing this out of proportion, it’s not as big as you think it is, which is really devaluing to them. Right. Or to try to fix that of here’s let me, well at least, or like you know, or the good thing is like we say these phrases in a sense of trying to fix something, but again that’s pretty devaluing of I’m feeling this way and what you’re saying is my feelings aren’t enough or I can’t sit in this space. Right. Like I need to feel differently. So we really aren’t teaching them like the harmfulness is, we don’t teach them how to navigate those feelings. We try to suppress those feelings for them.

Brian Lawson – Host (12:31):

Yeah. And when we try to fix them, we’re really not helping them learn how to handle situations. Are we, we’re just giving them the bandaid. Say here you go, move on. Rather than learning what caused it, what’s contributing to it? How do you navigate that?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (12:43):

Which oftentimes it’s probably really about us than it really is about them. What do you mean by that? Because if I can help, if I can fix it, then I walk away feeling good. One that I have helped someone. I mean that feels good, but too we tend to feel uncomfortable when someone comes and shares

something with us and we have this sense of responsibility, like I’m supposed to do something about this when I think oftentimes we’re just supposed to sit in that space with them versus do something. So when I tried to fix it, I’m really doing something so I can move myself out of this uncomfortable space with them and get to a different space versus really what’s best for them. It really becomes about what, what’s best for us. So it sounds like, it sounds like you wrote talking about practicing empathy. Yes.

Brian Lawson – Host (13:28):
Right. It says that what she would say it is.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (13:30):

Yeah. I think that’s one of the greatest tools we have that is under utilized that we can help students navigate anxiety, depression, loneliness. Not that we can fix that for them, but we can help them navigate it by giving them permission to feel the way they feel. And that’s powerful when you give someone permission to do that and identify with it. So if a student comes to me and they’re upset about something and I can say, well, of course you’re upset about that, that is painful or that is upsetting, right? Like there’s just something freeing when someone says that to me. Yes. Like, yeah, I have a right to feel the way I feel. That may, we may handle it different. Like we may talk about what we do with that, but being able to say, yeah, of course you feel like that and that’s freedom and that allows them to sit in that space. And I think that’s the coast sitting right where I’m going to sit in this space with you, rather trying to move you to a space that feels more happy or comfortable. Let’s sit here and give them permission to do that.

Brian Lawson – Host (14:28):
Sure. Like not trying to move on too quickly. Right. Which we do all the time.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (14:32):

Well, yes. Yeah. And really listening to them and helping them navigate it. Because the other part they struggle with is I have this feeling and I don’t really know what to do with it, so I can come in and tell you what I think you should do with it and I might be right. I mean, most of them I think I am right. You’re like, I can help you with this. But that really doesn’t help them develop the skillset so they then can sit there and I give them permission, but also think the subs were asking good questions. That if as youth ministers as if we develop the skill of being able to ask good questions, then I help them walk through it and let them own what they do with it, but give them, that helps me develop that skillset of I feel this way now what?

Brian Lawson – Host (15:15):

Yeah. Yeah. I think asking good questions is really important. [inaudible] Followup questions really matter. And listening. Well, I remember I used to sit in the back of the youth room where I was, because students would come in early and hang out for a while before we had programming. And I would just sit there and they thought I was working on something. But in reality I was listening to their conversations, right? We all do that. Parents do that to their kids, right? So I’m listening to their conversations and I’m listening, yes. To what they’re interested in and kind of learning about them that way. But I’m also listening beyond that, right? I’m trying to hear what’s, what is it they’re really bringing in with them today and then how do I, when I actually get to talk to them, how do I approach that with empathy? Right? So listening is so important too. Right? So you asking me the questions like you said, and then listening

Kirsten Knox – Guest (16:11):

And listening is powerful, right? Like I tend to talk to people who are listened to me like when I know, and I think teenagers know very well they know and someone is listening to them and when someone is just pretending to listen to them, right? So there’s a, you really speak value when I’m willing to listen to you and that is attractive. So I’m going to talk to people. If we want to be people who students share things with, we’ve really got to figure out how do I listen well to them and how do I identify with how they’re feeling, how do I ask them questions to navigate through that and really give them permission to do that. And I think sometimes we underestimate the value of that because there’s not a concrete output, right? Like if I tried to fix it for you, then I can be like, okay, just do a, B and C and you’re going to feel good and this will be great.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (17:02):

Whereas that’s a lot more messy and it doesn’t feel like it has this concrete outcome. But I feel like that gives students way more help and it just helps them navigate that and like ask the questions asking. I think the goodness really is in the second and third question oftentimes. So I would say even you asked that question if you don’t get much as other questions, but even when they share to ask follow up questions cause also helps them to be able to verbalize what they’re feeling. And I think that’s a part of empathy. Empathy too is sometimes the help is they describe it and you to be able to name it, name the emotion for them and then give them a chance. Is that how you’re feeling? Because they oftentimes don’t, can’t articulate, right. I can figure out how I’m feeling but I can’t really, the feeling and you being able to help them make those connections is also very powerful for them. Helping them deal with whatever they’re going through, but also just in developing skills.

Brian Lawson – Host (18:00):
Yeah. So something like, so I hear you saying that you are hurt by this, is that right? Is that what you’d

say then? Something like that.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (18:09):

Yeah. And then if a student comes in, they share, right. They’ve been left out with friend group, which is very popular. Right? Like we talk about that a lot cause we do that and you get to say, I bet it really hurt when they, I imagine that was really painful when you felt left out and they get to say, yes, it was painful. I know why. Yeah, that is painful. Right. And just that permission, it’s okay for it to be painful. It’s okay for you to be hurt. Right. I’d be hurt too. And really to identify that in that place with them. But I think yes, and helping them and sometimes guys and girls do that differently. They talk differently. Right? they verbalize differently and I think seeing that in both genders can look a little different. And being able to recognize what does that look like in different, how they communicate it I think has helped too.

Brian Lawson – Host (18:57):

Yeah. So so we’re talking about putting this in relationally, right? One-On-One, practicing empathy one- on-one. Is there a way that in an entire ministry with a youth or children’s ministry in the program structure, or what should the activities you do, is there a way to put empathy into those and what, what might that look like or where have you seen that done before?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (19:25):

I think it probably starts first with training your people, your volunteers and your leaders and really raising the importance of that cause naturally I think we have phrases where it’s harmful and we don’t intend it to be. So I want to bring awareness to that and I want to help them understand what empathy is and then to be able to do that with students to be able to communicate that way. So I would say first start with the training and second, I think it’s just in your every day interaction cause I oftentimes would tell leaders some of your best conversations will be those unplanned, right? Like you’re in the middle of game time. I want to take advantage of the unplanned time. So we’re waiting. It’s not their turn, right? Or it’s hanging out and we’re eating dinner. Like those kind of one-on-one. I oftentimes tell my adult, I want you to have one meaningful conversation with everyone that’s in your small group or with whatever group of students they’re working with, if you can, and not the every week you get one with all of them.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (20:23):

But if my goal is I’m going to go in and I’m going to listen and want to ask questions and that be to think almost anytime in your youth ministry, you can do that during game time. Small group is also a time to do that and not to move too quickly because I think in small groups sometimes we have an agenda, right? Like I have these questions and I have this bottom line that I want to get to. So you feel like, Oh we something good today. And then being able to, when they’re sharing really to spend some time and what they’re talking about and not feel like you have to rush too quickly to get the agenda done so you can create those spaces. I think anytime there’s one on one conversation or group conversation.

Brian Lawson – Host (21:04):

Yeah, so give it even giving your small group leaders the training to understand when to veer off of the curriculum and also the freedom to do that I think is what you’re saying is to know like I have got 10 questions I got to get through in the short amount of time. However this student has brought this and it’s significant and important to them. Probably also important to someone else in the group if not the entire group, if that person’s experiencing it. So maybe the last six questions, we don’t really need to get to tonight.

Kirsten Knox – Guest (21:35):

Right? There’s great value there. And I think they’re watching how you respond. So if I’m another kid in that small group and someone shares something and you rush past it or you minimize it or you try to fix it, right? If I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, why aren’t going to share what’s going on with me with them? Cause that’s not real helpful. I don’t want to feel like I’m an idiot for feeling this way or I’m wrong. Right? So I think even having those conversations really opens it up for other people who may not have been sharing to be able to say that’s a safe adult. This is a safe space that I can talk about those things and really explore that. So the, the ripple effect of that is far greater than that one conversation. And at times there’s far greater things and getting through. So I’m like, you, you have permission not to get through all the questions. And then sometimes someone might share something where you’re like, Hey, that’s really great and talk about it. And then, then I know I’m gonna follow up with them. Right? We’re going to get through that. I’m going to have some, right. We’re going to navigate that. But then I also know that I can then talk to them at another time and later that also gives me follow up and able to follow up with them with that.

Brian Lawson – Host (22:44):

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually think today the, the culture that we’re in and gen Z now might actually be easier for small churches to reach than previous generations. Is that something you agree with?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (22:59):

I say medium. Small churches have have the advantage more than they have ever had the advantage. Wow. No more than ever. But in recent, right? Like in this culture of if I’m a student, right and I am lonely, so I crave relationships but I don’t know how to do it. So that’s intimidating and relationships are intimidating anyways cause there’s a vulnerable component. But even when I don’t have the skills and that’s even more intimidating. So I tell oftentimes tell small to medium churches, you haven’t asked that. Cause you can start with five or six kids and if you create a safe space where they can be themselves and that’s good enough, there is your carrot like we have, I think, not that everyone would always verbalize this, but we always feel like we’re competing, competing with the church down the street that has the lights and has the resources and has all these things and you’re like, we’re never going to do that. And I’m like, yes. And you have something to offer them that is so good and is so they need, and there’s, there’s your carrot, right? There’s what makes you attractive. You create that students are craving and dying for spaces that they can have that. And once they obtain that, and it’s easier to do when you got smaller group because you can create that safe space that will be attractive and there’s your growth strategy. Yeah.

Brian Lawson – Host (24:14):

So good. So good. So, so small, medium churches, that’s your, that’s it. Practice empathy. Really develop those relationships, which has been in youth ministry forever and it’s still the heart of it and it’s not changed. And for our larger churches, maybe their, their challenges, how do they get smaller, right. That you can stay large. But how do you create smaller spaces where empathy can really be practiced?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (24:39):

Yes. That’s what I tell small churches is really the larger street, their larger church down the street is competing with you. Yeah. Because they are trying to figure out how do I become small and you are already there. So start with what you have and to really understand that that’s a strength that you have and students will gravitate to that and that will grow if we really can obtain that. And that I’m like, that doesn’t take resources. That takes leadership. Which is why I would say leaders need to be investing in their own leadership and growth. Cause I’m like that takes leaders and knowing how to create that, that doesn’t, that’s not a budget item. It takes no money to create that. It takes skill and leadership but it doesn’t take money. So good. So gen Z needs empathy. They need it. They need one of the greatest gifts we can give.

Brian Lawson – Host (25:27):
Absolutely. And I cost $0 million. Right. So, so we just need to be practicing that

Kirsten Knox – Guest (25:34):

In recognizing that it requires more of me. I think that’s probably the other reason. Sometimes we don’t spend time in that is because that’s going to cost me right to sit with someone to talk with someone to navigate in those bases emotionally has a cost. So I think the other pieces leaders is recognizing if I’m going to do that well and our leaders are going to do that well, we get to figure out how we’re also filling their cups and filling my cup so I have that to offer. Yeah.

Brian Lawson – Host (26:00):
So as we close to the person who maybe feels a little stretched, maybe they fill a little challenged or

discouraged in ministry that it doesn’t, it doesn’t always make sense. What would you say to them?

Kirsten Knox – Guest (26:18):

I would say you are enough that God has called you in this space and in this time and God has given you what you need to do, what he has asked you to do. And when we get in those incurred discouraging spaces, oftentimes, at least for me, I know I tend to then to rely a lot more on myself because I’ve got to figure this out. I gotta be able to do this versus really leaning into God has me to this space. God has called me to this place. How can I allow him just to work through me and relax a little bit? And to recognize that you are enough. And I would also think about how can you fill your cup? What is energizing to you? What are things that make you feel encouraged and passionate and invest some time in that? And that can be spiritual stuff. I mean, are spiritual disciplines that can do that as well as that might be just putting in going to the beach or go to the movies or getting your nails done or going to play basketball, whatever that is, that relieves some of that tension and allows you to be present to invest in those things in your life. But ultimately to recognize God has put you here, what you bring to the table is enough. And he won or that. Yeah.

Brian Lawson – Host (27:32):

Yeah. Excellent. Thank you, Kiersten. Appreciate it. Generation Z is different than any generation before. They’re the first generation who’s had the smartphone technology nearly their entire lives and even though they’re connected to one another all the time via their phones, they struggle with personal relationships. They want community, but they don’t know how to obtain that. Our role as leaders, whether youth or children, young adult ministries, is to teach them empathy, to model empathy for them so that they can see the power that that has on their relationships. As Kirsten said, those of us who practice empathy, which costs us $0 million are playing a significant role in the kingdom of God. So before we head to our last segment, I have one final question for you. How are you currently practicing empathy in your ministry and now friends, this brings us to the last segment, a segment called quick win.

Brian Lawson – Host (28:29):

These are segments we’ll have the end of our podcast that you can do immediately to help you gain traction in your ministry. Post it notes. I bet you have some sit in your desk. I have lots of them, different shapes, different sizes, different colors. The more unique, the better. One of the quickest ways that you can catch a win is to write your awesome or you rock or I love it when you come to youth group and send it to students randomly. Just choose students in your, in your role and just send them, post the notes to say, you’re awesome. You’re amazing. We love you. I’m so glad you’re here. Those little notes will make a huge difference in our lives and many of them will keep them. In fact, I bet they take them out of the out of the envelope and put them in their Bibles.

Brian Lawson – Host (29:13):

We put them on their bulletin board in their room, reminding them how amazing they are will play a huge role in how much they love care and trust you as a leader. Well, that brings us to the end of our very first episode of making sense of ministry, podcasts, friends, I hope you enjoyed this show and if you did, do us a big favor and subscribe to this podcast, share it with your friends. Leave us a rating. Help us out as we seek to help you and others make sense of this thing we call ministry.

Ashley (29:41):

For more information regarding coaching, consulting, job placement, and online courses, join us yminstitute.com.

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